Hinamatsu, is she a worthy leader?

[Kevinsmith101]

Just to echo everyone else I take..

Hinamansu 

Arcane effigy ( for condition removal) and effigy upgrade

Mysterious effigy ( because its free)

Widow weaver

Vasalisa

2 stitched together 

Duet

4 stones, mostly for the mask to summon, usually a 3rd stitched or wicked dolls.

 

 

 

[Ogid]

It seems that Hinamatsu is favored as a Puppet Leader, but what about the Qi and Gong part of the crew? One interesting feature to import from TT is the Distraction Aura, which is quite good (to Wp duels to enemies within 2). In NVB that aura is only in Poltergeist, so only avaliable to Pandora (and only in 1 big model). In NVB we have some good Wp based attacks to pair with that:

Candy, Serena (and a Doppleganger copying these) are the main models that could take advantage of this... maybe Wisp's and Luck effigy Wp attacks are another good pair. Including a few of these into 1 Kabuki and 1 or 2 Geishas could lead to an interesting crew. The big advantage would be putting the other player at  in the duels, which would also prevent his models to cheat (or would force him to expend Focused defensively)

My first idea of this concept was something like this:

• Hinamatsu, Mysterious Effigy, Arcane Effigy (effigy of fate), Candy, Serena, Kabuki, Kunoichi, Geisha, Geisha/Wisp + 5/4 SS cache.

It includes a good mix between Df attacks and Wp attacks; including also 5 lures, 3/2 distraction auras and 5/4 Leverages. The Wisp version is interesting because it may help to stack Distracted (with both Lures thanks to shimmering lights and with attacks versus enemies under Distraction); which will make the Kunoichi hit like a truck (but it leaves the crew with only 2 Distracted auras...)

Has anyone tried this kind of crew with her as leader?

[Sharp_GT]

7 hours ago, Ogid said:

It seems that Hinamatsu is favored as a Puppet Leader, but what about the Qi and Gong part of the crew?

Bill algren is an excellent hench to hang with, geisha is a cheap debuffer, the charm warder is a silver bullet, and all of them are adding more leverage.  I think your on to something

[Ogid]

 Yep, it could be potentially good... but maybe it's because I'm already divided between NVB and TT XD. I need to give this a whirl...

Qi and Gong models are very cost efficient and bring some tools not avaliable (or harder to get) in the faction: Unless I'm mistaken, there is not Lantern of souls or Exorcism trigger in NVB, 1 or 2 Warders could be a nasty surprise for a summoner or crews relying in demise abilties picked into NVB for that reason; the distraction aura is in only 1 model (which is great because in TT most Wp attacks are focused in control, in NVB there are great damage options attacking Wp), leverage also only in 1 model and there is no Cover in the faction (Maurice has something similar, but not as good... or you could use the frozen pilars, but these aren't cheap to create and cannot be moved)

• The humble Geisha: Attack stat of 5 and her own aura applies so the enemy would be at (that's crazy accuracy for a 4 points model), plus triggers for distracted, and Focused in the Lure. They are very squishy versus non-mele attacks tho.
• Kabuki: Pseudo-jump, a Greatsword and Combat Finesse (!); plus way to put a distraction aura where needed. Again a bit squishy versus non-mele attacks tho.
• Kunoichi: From handling Focused+1 like she were a Tanuki to ram up her damage track to 3/4/5 (ignoring armor) or 4/5/6 versus isolated/distracted foes... on top of tools for the job to get always the needed suit and decent defensive abilities.
• Charm Warder: More situational, but very good in her niche (summoners or demise)... plus as she also attacks in Wp; it goes well with Geishas/Kabuki.
• Bill: Tough (Armor+1 and will heal mid game), Mobile in combat and has Cover and Challenge (and a heal just in case)

I'm not sure how competitive it would be, but they bring a lot of unique tools to consider... Or even to mix with the puppet theme: Bill + Shadow effigy giving Cover + Concealments to the puppets versus a shooty crew; 1 or 2 warders into a Summoner/Demise heavy crew or 1 Kunoichi handling Focused to the Coryphee Duet to name a few

[gozer]

This seemed like a good thread to ask...

I just bought Hinamatsu to lead a crew composed primarily of Stitched Together and Wicked Dolls BUT I don't really have a way to get ahold of Vasilisa. Does anyone know how she is going to be presented for purchase in M3e?

I'd hate to have to repurchase Hinamatsu later on, just to get Vasilisa, but it looks like putting these two in a box might be something Wyrd does.

Any suggestions?

[Oldboy]

19 minutes ago, gozer said:

This seemed like a good thread to ask...

I just bought Hinamatsu to lead a crew composed primarily of Stitched Together and Wicked Dolls BUT I don't really have a way to get ahold of Vasilisa. Does anyone know how she is going to be presented for purchase in M3e?

I'd hate to have to repurchase Hinamatsu later on, just to get Vasilisa, but it looks like putting these two in a box might be something Wyrd does.

Any suggestions?

Hinamatsu has her own M3e Box. My guess is Vasilisa + Wicked Dolls get a Box together...

[Ogid]

Hinamatsu is already alone in a M3e box. 

Vasilisa IMO will be boxed with the 3 dolls at least... If you want to play it ASAP a good way is trying to find a Colodi M2e box that bring Vasi, dolls and Colodi + Totems... but no idea about when it will be avaliable.

EDIT: For Puppets take a look to models like Coryphees and Bunrakus; Dolls are great and Stitcheds are good versus things like Manipulative or Serene Countereance, but without heavy Lucid dreaming they lose some punch imo. Bunrakus, Corpyphees and the Duet are very cost/effective, good fighters and also nice schemers; plus you can always summon Stitcheds with scrap thanks to Vasi or Widow Weaver.

[Thedeadclaw]

The Collodi M2E box is gonna be hard to track down but the fastest way to get Vasilisa. If you want a Vasilisa effect without the heals you could just grab Widow Weaver for now, although those heals and her carry effect make Vasilisa very worth buying to me.

[extremor]

I‘ve tried Hinamatsu as a leader in a few games so far and I really like it. I started using puppets only and have then tried including more nightmare models but I must say, I prefere puppets. Next I want to give the TT touch a chance. Anyone tried kabuki or kunoichi? 

I often played the following list- would you simply drop the stiched?

New Hinamatsu Crew 
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Hinamatsu
    Ancient Pact
Totem(s):
  Mysterious Effigy
    Effigy of Fate
Hires:
  Coryphee Duet
  Vasilisa
  Serena Bowman
  Stitched Together 3
  Stitched Together 2
 

[Ogid]

Interesting... do you rather the anti black jocker to Butterfly jump in Hinamatsu? And do you rather the Mysterious Emissary to Arcane or Lucky? 

For making room one of these dropping the Stitcheds (or "downgrade" them to dolls) would probably be the better call.

In a nutshell Kabuki is like a prettier and squishier Mature Nephillim that needs a nearby scheme to jump (and that's another reason to add dolls to that list, cheap AP in case you need scheme markers to feed the Kabuki or Vasilisa abilities), it won't perform well versus ranged attacks but it's hard to deal with in close range; if you don't have to charge, it hits hard. Keep an eye in enemies affected by the Distraction aura; those are easy targets to use Twist Reality, Lure (even the Effigy crappy stat 4 one), Dazzling Flourish, Agressive Stance or any Wp ability you include.

The kunoichi is a jack of all trades but it's kind of the opposite to Kabuki; you don't wan't to engage her unless you are sure that model won't survive (or you plan to Lure her or the target afterwards).

About the Duet, it'd be probably better include 2 Coryphees than a duet for selecting/getting selected as target of schemes (it's a bit more akward if you want to split join in turn 1 tho); but mind you can use Vasilisa in turn 1 to create a duet with her bonus action.

If you try them, tell us how it goes!

[extremor]

20 hours ago, Ogid said:

Interesting... do you rather the anti black jocker to Butterfly jump in Hinamatsu? And do you rather the Mysterious Emissary to Arcane or Lucky? 

For making room one of these dropping the Stitcheds (or "downgrade" them to dolls) would probably be the better call.

In a nutshell Kabuki is like a prettier and squishier Mature Nephillim that needs a nearby scheme to jump (and that's another reason to add dolls to that list, cheap AP in case you need scheme markers to feed the Kabuki or Vasilisa abilities), it won't perform well versus ranged attacks but it's hard to deal with in close range; if you don't have to charge, it hits hard. Keep an eye in enemies affected by the Distraction aura; those are easy targets to use Twist Reality, Lure (even the Effigy crappy stat 4 one), Dazzling Flourish, Agressive Stance or any Wp ability you include.

The kunoichi is a jack of all trades but it's kind of the opposite to Kabuki; you don't wan't to engage her unless you are sure that model won't survive (or you plan to Lure her or the target afterwards).

About the Duet, it'd be probably better include 2 Coryphees than a duet for selecting/getting selected as target of schemes (it's a bit more akward if you want to split join in turn 1 tho); but mind you can use Vasilisa in turn 1 to create a duet with her bonus action.

If you try them, tell us how it goes!

Thx. 

Yes I prefere the „anti black Joker“ since hinamatsu is going to flip hell a lot of cards (3AP, Flurry, Onslaught and a build in plus flip). 

 

And I haven‘t tried any other effigy since I don’t own them AND I like the mysterious emissarys blast+terrain!!! It already happened to make a huge difference in scores... 

oh yes I love the distraction Aura. I play Lucius a lot and the false witness is awesome because of the aura. And I play serena most of the time! 

 

Good point with the Duett and schemes. And also with the Dolls. I really love to play 1 mannequin for scheming but I definitely will try dolls soon. 

 

Could  it be you read the kabuki wrong? Imho he doesn’t jump himself but the targeted scheme marker!!!

[Ogid]

Ty for the feedback!

17 minutes ago, extremor said:

Could  it be you read the kabuki wrong? Imho he doesn’t jump himself but the targeted scheme marker!!!

Lol, you are right! I missread hard that one . Ty for pointing it out!

I need to rethink how to use him well in a Hinamatsu crew...

The best part is still the Distraction aura in an 8SS model reasonably tanky in mele and how good is a 2'' with the possibility to also get butterfly jump and Combat Finesse to control range 1 models; plus the denial/scheme potential of the (now well read) "A New Horizont". Also a greatsword for 8SS is a good investment, specially if a Doppleganger is included. So that's why I'd consider him. Crews able to attack through non- attacks will be able to kill him too fast so I'd avoid him there.

To use his greatsword for high damage you'll need to avoid charging in his activation; that means that his Lure become much more important (but that's a bit harder to pull off well because you'll want to also take advantage of his range 2 and stat 5 isn't that high) unless more Distraction auras are in the crew. The effigy seems an useful companion for him if enemy models are already close, you may walk/charge the effigy into position, Lure the Kabuki into a 2'' engagement range and accomplice into him (but for doing that you won't want the EoF in that one). Vasilisa has an obey as bonus action that may be used to charge with him and still have the Greatsword bonus in its turn. If the list include WW then a model may be offered in a silver plate thanks to "Into the Dream Web" (+ Terrorize if needed) and a bit harder to pull off with Serena's "Hole in the World".

[Cursed25]

I'm curious! Is there a way with puppet keyword to generate scrap markers?

[Ogid]

29 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

I'm curious! Is there a way with puppet keyword to generate scrap markers?

With Collodi is easy, just make the totems kill each other and then summon more with him (who can summon two per 1 AP). Or you can go with Double Master Collodi Zoraida and use the doll for scrap. But all of this require playing DMH.

With Hinamatsu there is no "free" reliable scrap generation, you may include a few dolls and play them recklessly/just kill them to use that scrap to summon stitcheds; but that will have a "cost" of 3SS per scrap marker. Vasilisa has a trigger (tomes), but it's not built in and needs an enemy construct so it's far from reliable.

You can always include WW + Teddy OOK (that go well with the keyword being a construct) and generate stuffing; but at that point you could be playing dreamer, so not sure about this last one. In case you like this last one; Teddy has a 1SS OOK tax as usual, but you could also include both Kade + Teddy for only 1 extra SS (18SS both); a Lure Stat 7 is always handy and both play so well together is something to consider.

[Maniacal_cackle]

If kabuki warrior has inhuman reflexes, you probably want to charge every activation anyway (one damage from blade rush and repositioning to 2" is better than a plus flip on that damage track most of the time).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also worth noting the shadow emissary is fantastic, and the shadow effigy has a very useful ability on the back line (aura of concealment), so could be worth hiring.

[Cursed25]

6 hours ago, Ogid said:

With Collodi is easy, just make the totems kill each other and then summon more with him (who can summon two per 1 AP). Or you can go with Double Master Collodi Zoraida and use the doll for scrap. But all of this require playing DMH.

With Hinamatsu there is no "free" reliable scrap generation, you may include a few dolls and play them recklessly/just kill them to use that scrap to summon stitcheds; but that will have a "cost" of 3SS per scrap marker. Vasilisa has a trigger (tomes), but it's not built in and needs an enemy construct so it's far from reliable.

You can always include WW + Teddy OOK (that go well with the keyword being a construct) and generate stuffing; but at that point you could be playing dreamer, so not sure about this last one. In case you like this last one; Teddy has a 1SS OOK tax as usual, but you could also include both Kade + Teddy for only 1 extra SS (18SS both); a Lure Stat 7 is always handy and both play so well together is something to consider.

I thought about Collodi but he is very hard to get this days and I'm not sure my meta will accept DMH in competitive games! (I'm not even sure myself I would allow them or not ahah!)

 

For the Teddy+WW combo I though about it with also 2-3 Stitched and 2-3 daydream for a lucid dream list (opponent won't see it coming!) But it's just theoryfaux and I'm not sure it would be viable! And like you said except for the surprise factor, why would I play Hinamatsu when I could just play dreamer with a list like this!

[Maniacal_cackle]

If you want a summoning with Widow Weaver list, Zoraida is actually the best master apparently.

[Nagi21]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you want a summoning with Widow Weaver list, Zoraida is actually the best master apparently.

Free stiched for days bois!

[Ogid]

6 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

For the Teddy+WW combo I though about it with also 2-3 Stitched and 2-3 daydream for a lucid dream list (opponent won't see it coming!) But it's just theoryfaux and I'm not sure it would be viable! And like you said except for the surprise factor, why would I play Hinamatsu when I could just play dreamer with a list like this!

A good thing about Malifaux is your list only have to be good for the game you are going to play; it doesn't sound like the best idea, but if you find a particular pool/oponent versus it could work, it'd be worth a try. However I'm not sure about this particular one... Only 4 LDs with little ability to summon more doesn't sound that impactful.

WW has the puppet keyword while hiring, if she is the leader, it's easier to include those LDs and puppets without paying a lot of OOK tax.

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If kabuki warrior has inhuman reflexes, you probably want to charge every activation anyway (one damage from blade rush and repositioning to 2" is better than a plus flip on that damage track most of the time).

Yeah IR gives him a few extra tools. Once he is engaged, I like more the to damage flip than ping damage once unless facing specific defenses (and Butterfly Jump should keep him at 2'' range anyway), but it's good having that option. Maybe in the second attack it's a better deal, he can attack once with the Greatsword bonus and then charge to reposition and engage a second model in the 2'' range while doing ping damage.

The best part of IR for him is Butterfly Jump for the ability to keep enemies engaged in his 2'' range and being able to reposition the distraction aura in an enemy activation; but being able to disengage with a charge is also cool.

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also worth noting the shadow emissary is fantastic, and the shadow effigy has a very useful ability on the back line (aura of concealment), so could be worth hiring.

From these 2 I like more the Effigy than the Emissary; the Emissary is good to cicle the hand and it's quite mobile; but puppets are already quite fast, don't benefice that much for cicling their hand and that is also the one of the squishiest emissaries with Df5 and no damage reduction; for just the aura I'd pick just the effigy (that has also "Remember the mission" that is quite good).

In general the effigies are nice, for 4SS models they aren't that easy to take down and bring useful perks:

• Arcane: Dispel Magic + Accomplice cheaper than Doll+EM, the aura is also quite good (discard to cheat)
• Brutal: Pine box might be fun to copy with Doppleganger and vs Sz1 enemies, aura isn't bad to chip heal combat puppets.
• Carrion: Aura of Decay is top notch, that one can shut down Demise (Eternal) or things like  Juggernaut; the rest of the card isn't that useful unless you hire undeads OOK tho.
• Hodgepodge: Nice heal in a budget, the aura isn't bad but i'd work better with a ranged crew (maybe including Angel eyes?)
• Lucky: Useable mele, Slow and useful aura he can also benefice himself.
• Shadow: Useable mele, free interacts with other models (useful for schemes like dig or the second point of Deliver) and concealment aura.
• Mysterious: Useable mele, Lure + Accomplice (more useful vs friendly model with stat 4, but not useless vs enemies thanks to the aura), useful aura.

Or you may include them all and play Effigies seven XD.

[extremor]

Da sich imho die Coryphee sooo stark anführen, möchte ich gerne mal folgende Liste testen, was sagt ihr dazu? 
 

Dancing Puppet  (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Hinamatsu
Totem(s):
  Mysterious Effigy
Hires:
  Vasilisa
  Coryphee Duet
  Coryphee
    Ancient Pact
  Coryphee 2
    Ancient Pact
  Mannequin
  Mannequin 2
References:
  Stitched Together
  Wicked Doll