Lady Justice Vs Metal Golem

[SteampunkCake]

So an interesting situation occurred during my game last night.
When Lady Justice kills a model it drops no markers.
When the Metal Golem is killed it's demise ability would drop a scrap marker.
Does Lady Justice's ability stop the demise ability?

[Nikodemus]

Rules pdf page 3 under "Breaking the Rules":

Quote

If two special rules directly contradict each other, rules that prevent something from happening take precedent over rules that allow something to happen.

 

[Mycellanious]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

Lady J says "doesn't drop any markers when killed" and the demise says "after this model is killed."

Since the demise is tied to being killed and Lady J prevents that, I think RAW indicates you don't get the marker. You could argue RAI either way. So I would lean heavily towards not getting the marker.

Well thats initially what I thought, but the detailed timing says otherwise. if you look it says first you resolve any after killing effects, which includes demise, then you drop markers as a result of it being killed. So although it is determined "killed" the moment it drops to 0 hp and doesnt get healed, markers drop after "after killing" effects. So if we want to claim that the Lady J's ability only works in the moment of killing, then it wouldnt work at all. 

Its unforunate, because Demise: Explosive has the same working, which means it would override the Metal Golem's demise as well. I dont know if thats intended, but rn I think the detailed timing makes it work that way. If the timing were swapped, if markers were placed before demise effects, then it could be interpreted differently, but it cant be that way because that would screw up demise: eternal. 

[Mycellanious]

6 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

Rules pdf page 3 under "Breaking the Rules":

 

I disagree. Lady J's ability prevents markers dropped from the killing of the model, but it doesnt prevent the demise ability

[Jesy Blue]

17 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I disagree. Lady J's ability prevents markers dropped from the killing of the model, but it doesnt prevent the demise ability

It prevents all markers being dropped regardless of the source, including the Golem's and pig's Delicious Bacon demise abilities that drop markers.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Lady J says "doesn't drop any markers when killed" and the demise says "after this model is killed."

Since the demise is tied to being killed and Lady J prevents that, I think RAW indicates you don't get the marker. You could argue RAI either way. So I would lean heavily towards not getting the marker.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Mycellanious any reason you think Lady J applies to a single point in time? I'd read her as adding a condition to markers being dropped (did the drop originate from killing them? Then it doesn't drop).

Her ability is passive. It doesn't say "after", so I believe applies when relevant, not at a specific timing step.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Well thats initially what I thought, but the detailed timing says otherwise. if you look it says first you resolve any after killing effects, which includes demise, then you drop markers as a result of it being killed. So although it is determined "killed" the moment it drops to 0 hp and doesnt get healed, markers drop after "after killing" effects. So if we want to claim that the Lady J's ability only works in the moment of killing, then it wouldnt work at all. 

Its unforunate, because Demise: Explosive has the same working, which means it would override the Metal Golem's demise as well. I dont know if thats intended, but rn I think the detailed timing makes it work that way. If the timing were swapped, if markers were placed before demise effects, then it could be interpreted differently, but it cant be that way because that would screw up demise: eternal. 

I can't quite figure out what you're trying to say.

I think you're admitting that Lady Justice's ability applies to (and blocks) the Demise abilities.

If the sticking point for you is that there are a bunch of "when this model is killed" effects that probably should (for clarity, at least) say "After this model is killed", and because of that we have to be liberal about how we interpret 6.c's language...  Well, yeah.  👩‍🔬👩‍💼

[Necrokamo]

I agree that Lady Justice prevents markers from being put on by killing a model but I don't see the reason why she stops the effect of Demise (Eternal) if this is only an effect of avoiding be killed once per turn.

[Nikodemus]

1 hour ago, Necrokamo said:

I agree that Lady Justice prevents markers from being put on by killing a model but I don't see the reason why she stops the effect of Demise (Eternal) if this is only an effect of avoiding be killed once per turn.

No one is saying she stops Demise (Eternal). What people are saying is she stops Demise (drop a Marker).

[Adran]

I would say yes. Looking at the detailed timing, the marker dropped from killing a model is at the same time as the marker dropped from the demise ability (page 34 electronic)

[Ogid]

I agree with the more common opinion here; LJ stops demise(drop a marker). However it's not unreasonable to think she can't, so a quick FAQ about it won't hurt imo.