Timing of at the start of activation

[gelter]

Hi,

 

rulebook page 35, activation phase c1:

 

how works it with two actions in this phase. In this case collette unbury at the start of her activation. Inside 6“ of hamelins aura. Does she geht blighted?

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

So that's my understanding: all the events in the C1 subphase occur simultaneously, at the same instant ("the start of the model's activation"). However, resolving effects always happens sequentially, re-checking for additional simultaneous effects after each is resolved, until there are no more effects that can be resolved. Only at that point has the instant passed, and we move on to C2.

I'd stick to this. "At the start of the activation" is a specific trigger that happens at one very specific point, so you check in that point all effects and resolve them; if something happens while resolving one of them we are no longer "At the start of the activation".

2 hours ago, LeperColony said:

1.  I elect not to pass (A)

2.  I select Colette (B)

3.  At the start of Colette's activation, she is buried.  Therefore, Showstopper applies.  

4.  Showstopper resolves, placing her within 6" of Hamelin.

5.  Now Colette is within the effects of the Source of the Contagion.  No previous check could have returned this result.

The above would be the idea, but with a twist, the active player may choose the order in which the effects are resolved if more than one ability trigger at the same time. So it'd be more like this:

1. I elect not to pass (A)
2. I select Colette (B)
3. (C1) There are 2 "At the start of activation effects that may trigger" "Showstopper" and "Source of the Contagion". Colette chooses to resolve first the aura then Showstopper.
4. Source of Contagion checks she is not in range, she gains no blight
5. Showstopper place her.
6. End of resolving "At the start of activation effects" (end of C1)
7. Take actions (Start of C2)

Colette may choose to gain blight by resolving her showstopper first, but that would be a mistake.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The above would be the idea, but with a twist, the active player may choose the order in which the effects are resolved if more than one ability trigger at the same time.

Check out page 34 of the digital rulebook. The "simultaneous effects" breaks down how to do this.

Quote

Simultaneous Effects

Occasionally, an effect will generate multiple effects that occur at the same time. If this happens, they are resolved in the following order:

1. The Active player (or the player with Initiative, if there is no Active player) chooses one of their models with one or more unresolved effects and resolves those effects in whatever order they wish. Then, that player chooses another of their models with unresolved effects and resolves those effects in the same way, continuing in this manner until the player no longer has models with unresolved effects. When an effect resolves, the entire effect resolves (even if it also affects a model controlled by the non-Active player). 
2. The non-Active player resolves any unresolved effects affecting their models, as described above. 
3. Any remaining unresolved effects are resolved in an order determined by the Active player (or the player with Initiative, if there is no Active player).

 

[LeperColony]

7 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I'd stick to this. "At the start of the activation" is a specific trigger that happens at one very specific point, so you check in that point all effects and resolve them; if something happens while resolving one of them we are no longer "At the start of the activation".

The above would be the idea, but with a twist, the active player may choose the order in which the effects are resolved if more than one ability trigger at the same time. So it'd be more like this:

1. I elect not to pass (A)
2. I select Colette (B)
3. (C1) There are 2 "At the start of activation effects that may trigger" "Showstopper" and "Source of the Contagion". Colette chooses to resolve first the aura then Showstopper.
4. Source of Contagion checks she is not in range, she gains no blight
5. Showstopper place her.
6. End of resolving "At the start of activation effects" (end of C1)
7. Take actions (Start of C2)

Colette may choose to gain blight by resolving her showstopper first, but that would be a mistake.

While I agree with the outcome, I'm really not sure an ability is pending if it doesn't qualify.  For instance, the mere fact that "Source of the Contagion" exists doesn't make every other "at the start" ability a simultaneous resolution (albeit a fast one, since Source doesn't trigger).  Likewise, Colette's Showstopper doesn't make every other "at the start" ability simultaneous if she isn't buried.

Because as you laid it out:

I am at step 3.

I choose to resolve Source first.  Colette isn't in range, so no token.

I now resolve Showstopper and go in radius.  No token because I already resolve Source?

That seems questionable as a resolution scheme, even if it leads to the same outcome as I believe would happen (i.e. no token).

[Ogid]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Check out page 34 of the digital rulebook. The "simultaneous effects" breaks down how to do this.

Ok, good one; if the active player is forced to resolve their effects first, then colette would end in the area range when it triggers.

4 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

While I agree with the outcome, I'm really not sure an ability is pending if it doesn't qualify.  For instance, the mere fact that "Source of the Contagion" exists doesn't make every other "at the start" ability a simultaneous resolution (albeit a fast one, since Source doesn't trigger).  Likewise, Colette's Showstopper doesn't make every other "at the start" ability simultaneous if she isn't buried.

The key is if the model is within range when it triggers, if she is placed after the trigger; then that aura can no longer activate. But @Maniacal_cackle made a good point above about this. The active player is forced to resolve first, so Colette would be in range when the aura checks.

[Adran]

looking at the rule book I feel it is implied the Start of the activation is the whole of step C1, but it isn't explicitly stated. And so until you have resolved all the effects that happen at the start of activation (Or similar wording) you are still at the start of the activation. This does mean you can potentially "jump" into and out of effects to gain/avoid them.

In M2E the FAQ did tell us that if new effects were generated in a phase then those effects would be resolved during that phase. The sentence in the replace rules about the conditions not resolving does make it look like the expectation is that models will resolve all effects in the appropriate phase.

 

You could read it that at the start of a models activation, all "at the start of a models activation, When a modle activates, etc" effects happen and you resolve the ones which are effecting your model in an order you choose. The Hamlin aura isn't affecting your model until you enter its aura and have it as an unresolved effect that will effect your model.

 

The Vogel loop is certainly strange (and has the same strangeness as the Sandeep Golem replace) but does seem to work as I see it.

 

[LeperColony]

4 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Ok, good one; if the active player is forced to resolve their effects first, then colette would end in the area range when it triggers.

The key is if the model is within range when it triggers, if she is placed after the trigger; then that aura can no longer activate. But @Maniacal_cackle made a good point above about this. The active player is forced to resolve first, so Colette would be in range when the aura checks.

I don't think you understood @Maniacal_cackle correctly.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@LeperColony is correct, I personally favour the interpretation that you measure everything at the start of the activation, figure out which effects are supposed to occur simultaneously, then order them. But I don't think the rules give a clear cut answer.

The more experienced players seem to favour the other interpretation (that it is not a single point, you have to continuously check for new effects during 'start activation').

Personally I'd just suggest people chat to their playgroups and settle on which interpretation your group prefers. When the rules are ambiguous, it doesn't matter which interpretation you use as long as its one of the valid ones and everyone is on the same page.

[LeperColony]

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

looking at the rule book I feel it is implied the Start of the activation is the whole of step C1, but it isn't explicitly stated. And so until you have resolved all the effects that happen at the start of activation (Or similar wording) you are still at the start of the activation. This does mean you can potentially "jump" into and out of effects to gain/avoid them.

I'm very suspicious of any resolution system that says you have to resolve a ton of pending effects that may or may not happen just to preserve the potential ability to trigger if it does later qualify at a point in time subsequent to when other abilities with the exact same incipient timing have resolved.

It's a solution that sounds like it has been constructed to preserve an outcome, rather than a solution based on the timing rules that then results in an outcome.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

The Vogel loop is certainly strange (and has the same strangeness as the Sandeep Golem replace) but does seem to work as I see it.

 

Ooooo, I haven't heard of this one! Mind sharing the models involved so I can go read them? Or is it a M2E thing/not relevant here?

[gelter]

The point is phase c1 do not end with the unbury of colette. In c1 she checks if she is buried. Yes. So she can unbury. If she does, she will be affected by other effects. 

 

Else it have to be a timing when a special effect is timed. So if unbury is the last in this step i would say she is not affected. But i think how it is written all effects have to be resolved

[Ogid]

28 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I don't think you understood @Maniacal_cackle correctly.

There was nothing to understand, it was just a quote from the rulebook with some rules relevant for this case.

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@LeperColony is correct, I personally favour the interpretation that you measure everything at the start of the activation, figure out which effects are supposed to occur simultaneously, then order them. But I don't think the rules give a clear cut answer.

The more experienced players seem to favour the other interpretation (that it is not a single point, you have to continuously check for new effects during 'start activation').

You missed my point. I also favor that the "start of the activation" mean a point, not that if an effect adds another effect that also trigger "at the start of the activation" then it's also resolved. My point is the rules force the active player to resolve his effects first, so Colette would end in range of the aura when the non-active player chose to resolve that effect.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Ogid said:

There was nothing to understand, it was just a quote from the rulebook with some rules relevant for this case.

You missed my point. I also favor that the "start of the activation" mean a point, not that if an effect adds another effect that also trigger "at the start of the activation" then it's also resolved. My point is the rules force the active player to resolve his effects first, so Colette would end in range of the aura when the non-active player chose to resolve that effect.

You have misread/misunderstood the rules in the rulebook.

The Active player has to resolve the effects that affect their model first, which is not the same as resolving their effects first. The Aura would still be resolved during the Colette player resolving effects that  affect Colette, rather than effecst that affect Colettes opponent

[Ogid]

14 minutes ago, Adran said:

You have misread/misunderstood the rules in the rulebook.

The Active player has to resolve the effects that affect their model first, which is not the same as resolving their effects first. The Aura would still be resolved during the Colette player resolving effects that  affect Colette, rather than effecst that affect Colettes opponent

Ah ok, I did miss that; ty for pointing. Then if all effects of one model are resolved in that step at the same time, she will not be affected:

• C1 Choose Colette to resolve effects which affect her: Only Showstopper because she isn't in range of the aura
• Colette is placed (she is now in range of the aura but her effects had already been resolved).

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Ah ok, I did miss that; ty for pointing. Then if all effects of one model are resolved in that step at the same time, she will not be affected:

• C1 Choose Colette to resolve effects which affect her: Only Showstopper because she isn't in range of the aura
• Colette is placed (she is now in range of the aura but her effects had already been resolved).

Interesting, so you seem to have a different timing to everyone else, based on your answers. You seem to have a start activation time point for effects on colette, and then a start activation time point for effects on other models.

 

[gelter]

25 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Ah ok, I did miss that; ty for pointing. Then if all effects of one model are resolved in that step at the same time, she will not be affected:

• C1 Choose Colette to resolve effects which affect her: Only Showstopper because she isn't in range of the aura
• Colette is placed (she is now in range of the aura but her effects had already been resolved).

If you do it this way, she is still affected because the aura is not „her“ effect. 

 

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, gelter said:

If you do it this way, she is still affected because the aura is not „her“ effect. 

 

The aura is an effect effecting her, so it gets resolved during the section of Effects that effect models belonging to the active player. So It is "her" effect in that sense.

[gelter]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

The aura is an effect effecting her, so it gets resolved during the section of Effects that effect models belonging to the active player. So It is "her" effect in that sense.

Where is it written with the section of effects getting resolved for a model. Do you have a page number?

[Adran]

1 minute ago, gelter said:

Where is it written with the section of effects getting resolved for a model. Do you have a page number?

On the electronic book its page 34, Simultaneous effects but Manicle cackle quoted them earlier up the page

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, gelter said:

Where is it written with the section of effects getting resolved for a model. Do you have a page number?

Page 34, simultaneous effects, shows that for ordering you do it model-by-model I believe. I quoted the section above.

[gelter]

I found this:

 

SEQUENTIAL EFFECTS
Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves. 
In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before mov-
ing onto any additional effect. Additional effects are 
then resolved in the order they were generated, after 
any effects which had been previously generated have 
 

page 34

 

 

[gelter]

Hm both seems not the Solution of this Problem. 

Its not simultaneos because its not an effect that cause the bury and the aura. 

Its not sequential because it didnt creatr the aura effect

[gelter]

Ok i reread it again. 

 

In c1 they tell about effects. So it is ok

 

It is all happening in c1:

 

colette unburys, at this point there are no simultanoeus effects because she just can unbury. If she unbury inside the aura it follows the sequential effect that she get blighted because she is inside of 6“.

 

remember it is still phase c1. 

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, gelter said:

Hm both seems not the Solution of this Problem. 

Its not simultaneos because its not an effect that cause the bury and the aura. 

Its not sequential because it didnt creatr the aura effect

It is simultaneous because both effects have the same timing point (at the start of a models activation)

The question is about is there a fixed point at which you decide what all the relevant effects are, or can something add extra effects that have the same timing point.

 

[gelter]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

It is simultaneous because both effects have the same timing point (at the start of a models activation)

The question is about is there a fixed point at which you decide what all the relevant effects are, or can something add extra effects that have the same timing point.

 

The at the start of the activation is just saying it is resolved in phase c1

[Ogid]

49 minutes ago, Adran said:

Interesting, so you seem to have a different timing to everyone else, based on your answers. You seem to have a start activation time point for effects on colette, and then a start activation time point for effects on other models.

Maybe my answer wasn't clear enough. For me "At the start of the activation" is a point, a "photograph" of the table in that moment, so anything that may trigger in that moment triggers; anything that doesn't triggers here miss its oportunity. However as there isn't simultaneus effects, the order of these effects resolving can affect other effects. There could be other readings (any effect added in this phase that could trigger, would trigger; that's something that Wyrd have to clarify).

The key is I thought we had to resolve it per effect. For example, an effect that reads "when this model activates, deal 1 damage to each model in 2." If the other player have 2 models in that range, then I choose to resolve that aura, and both suffer 1 damage. But the pg34 rules instruct us to proceed per model, not per effect; so in this case the other player have to choose 1 of his models, suffer 1 damage; then choose the other model and suffer 1 damage.

By going with my first thought, resolving by effect; if you resolve "Showstopper" before "Source of the Contagion" then Colette ends in the aura's range when it triggers. But going with the rulebook way of solving it "per model" (pg34) Colette is only affected by the effects placed on her "at the start of the activation". After she is placed, the trigger "at the start of the activation" is gone for her and the placement cannot affect other effects that happnes at the start of the turn; (for example, if she had the damage aura I wrote above, then Hamelin wouldn't be affected before that effect wasn't placed on him at the start of the activation)

However this is a timing issue that could be read in more than one way, and for the other users answers it seems in other editions this worked differently... It'd be good that this would be adressed in a FAQ, because depending on how you understand "At the start of the activation" (a point or the entire C1 phase), the way to solve this will be different.