The finer points of Dashel

[Cronex13]

Having attemped to play a ton of Dashel recently, I have to say that he's very hard to do what it sounds like he is intended to do. He's very good at sitting at one spot and not getting moved. With the dispatcher nearby, his friends won't go anywhere either. It seems to me we need to stop thinking of him as a summoner. Yes, he has the capability to be summoned, but he's much better for sitting on a spot (say, center point) and shooting people who come near. Considering he has laugh off and the dispatcher basically gives a field of it to nearby friends. 

If he can get those scheme markers down then that's great, but I'm feeling like the best trick with Dashel is to go somewhere where the enemy HAS to come to you. (Easier said than done, especially when my main opponent is Ten Thunders.) 

At that point, Drop it becomes a lot more viable.

I recommend a Guardian to keep him company. Does wonders for keeping Dashel alive, safe from assassination AND some extra mobility should it be needed.

The Dispatcher is rough, because his best stuff isn't in his main abilities. His aura he gives out is great and his bonus is great. (Did kill a metal golem with his pistol one time though 😂)

[Dark Reaper]

10 hours ago, Adran said:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. You can summon off your own scheme markers, it just needs a higher card. So from that point of view he is relatively easy to summon with. Star with that as your frame of mind, and see the tn reduction with enemy scheme markers as a bonus and you'll do fine. Also using enemy scheme markers will make your opponents have to work harder to score. So even if you never do it, the ability that you could have will have helped you. 

The problem with this is that Dashel doesn't compare favourably to other summoners if you summon from your own markers. He is then effectively a stat4 summoner with an additional requirement of placing a marker yourself. Tbh, I would rather use Sonnia as my summoner at that point.

[Qracy]

3 hours ago, Dark Reaper said:

The problem with this is that Dashel doesn't compare favourably to other summoners if you summon from your own markers. He is then effectively a stat4 summoner with an additional requirement of placing a marker yourself. Tbh, I would rather use Sonnia as my summoner at that point.

Dashel and Sonnia are the two masters I played most in M3E, and in my experience, summoning works much better and reliable with Dashel than with Sonnia.

Compare both:

Sonnia can summon three different models: The Flame ( 2 SS), Stalker (5 SS) and Thralls (8 SS)

Dashel can summon seven different models, from 3 to 9 SS.

 

Concerning Sonnia, most of the time you will have the Flame in turn 1 and 2 still in the game, so you have 2 different kind of models to summon, 5 and 8 SS worth. You need an adequate enemy model with cost of at least 5 or 8 SS, you need to wound that model, stack enough burning, get into 8" with Sonnia and successfully do scorch the Soul in an opposed duel, so let's say you need a high card to have a save win in that duel. And I often needed several rounds or several models for stacking enough burning on one enemy or I had to invest two SS for the additional tome for Sonnia's trigger. But I never managed to do that in 1 round. If I play against an enemy, that knows Sonnia and who realizes what my aim is, he will just simply walk away with that model in the next turn, out of range of Sonnia's 8"...

 

That is in my opinion a much more difficult setup than compared to the setup Dashel needs:

A Soulstone, a Scheme Marker, a 5 of Masks and a High card for an 8 or 9 SS Model; or just a Soulstone, a scheme Marker and a high card for any other of the 5 models left. No opposed duel.

In my oppionion and experience, Dashel's summoning is much more reliable, projectable and less risky compared to Sonnia' summoning.

 

 

And again, the need for an enemy scheme marker isn't always bad:

You can use Dashel summoning skills just to remove an enemy scheme marker at 8" and with the same action summon e.g. a dog or Guild Guard, to stop the enemy model that just placed the marker to do the same in the next turn.

That's a very good anti-scheming ability for schemes like Search the Ruins, Detonate charges, Breakthrough, Harness the Ley Line or Dig their Graves.

That is a lot more than all the other summoners can do:

They can summon a model more easily for sure, if the enemy is still standing near it's scheme marker, you cannot remove that marker with the summoned model in the same turn. You have to kill the enemy and can then remove the scheme marker. In most cases, this won't be possible in the turn the new model was summoned and therefore often be to late to prevent the enemy from scoring.

 

[Antipodean]

I'm keen to try out Dashel, but I can't find the card for his Totem anywhere. Am I missing it?

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Antipodean said:

I'm keen to try out Dashel, but I can't find the card for his Totem anywhere. Am I missing it?

It's not in the PDF collection yet because the model (or the Guild book) hasn't been released yet.

I assume people have been playing off of the beta version of the totem.

[4thstringer]

10 hours ago, Antipodean said:

I'm keen to try out Dashel, but I can't find the card for his Totem anywhere. Am I missing it?

I printed it from the crew builder.

[Dark Reaper]

14 hours ago, Qracy said:

Dashel and Sonnia are the two masters I played most in M3E, and in my experience, summoning works much better and reliable with Dashel than with Sonnia.

Compare both:

Sonnia can summon three different models: The Flame ( 2 SS), Stalker (5 SS) and Thralls (8 SS)

Dashel can summon seven different models, from 3 to 9 SS.

 

Concerning Sonnia, most of the time you will have the Flame in turn 1 and 2 still in the game, so you have 2 different kind of models to summon, 5 and 8 SS worth. You need an adequate enemy model with cost of at least 5 or 8 SS, you need to wound that model, stack enough burning, get into 8" with Sonnia and successfully do scorch the Soul in an opposed duel, so let's say you need a high card to have a save win in that duel. And I often needed several rounds or several models for stacking enough burning on one enemy or I had to invest two SS for the additional tome for Sonnia's trigger. But I never managed to do that in 1 round. If I play against an enemy, that knows Sonnia and who realizes what my aim is, he will just simply walk away with that model in the next turn, out of range of Sonnia's 8"...

 

That is in my opinion a much more difficult setup than compared to the setup Dashel needs:

A Soulstone, a Scheme Marker, a 5 of Masks and a High card for an 8 or 9 SS Model; or just a Soulstone, a scheme Marker and a high card for any other of the 5 models left. No opposed duel.

In my oppionion and experience, Dashel's summoning is much more reliable, projectable and less risky compared to Sonnia' summoning.

 

 

And again, the need for an enemy scheme marker isn't always bad:

You can use Dashel summoning skills just to remove an enemy scheme marker at 8" and with the same action summon e.g. a dog or Guild Guard, to stop the enemy model that just placed the marker to do the same in the next turn.

That's a very good anti-scheming ability for schemes like Search the Ruins, Detonate charges, Breakthrough, Harness the Ley Line or Dig their Graves.

That is a lot more than all the other summoners can do:

They can summon a model more easily for sure, if the enemy is still standing near it's scheme marker, you cannot remove that marker with the summoned model in the same turn. You have to kill the enemy and can then remove the scheme marker. In most cases, this won't be possible in the turn the new model was summoned and therefore often be to late to prevent the enemy from scoring.

 

I agree with you that Dashel is a better summoner than Sonnia, but I said that if Dashel should work off a basic stat4, I would rather take Sonnia, which I stand by. If Dashel wants to summon a rifleman, he needs a 12r and has to provide a scheme marker as well, where for example Kirai can summon a Goryo with a 12.

 

I obviously agree that it is good to remove enemy scheme markers, but I see this as more corner case than a benefit compared to normal summoning, and it wasn't even the point I responded to. 

[Michael Curran]

Give me a competitive, stand alone against any strat, scheme, and enemy faction - 50ss Guard crew with Dashel Barker as your master please ladies & gentlemen.

[Cronex13]

Need to be entirely Guard?

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, Michael Curran said:

Give me a competitive, stand alone against any strat, scheme, and enemy faction - 50ss Guard crew with Dashel Barker as your master please ladies & gentlemen.

Try game so hard's list above.

[GameSoHard]

1 hour ago, Michael Curran said:

Give me a competitive, stand alone against any strat, scheme, and enemy faction - 50ss Guard crew with Dashel Barker as your master please ladies & gentlemen.

Top of page 3 of this thread. I’ve played it a few more times since then and still like it. Good early turns can set up decent late game and it has surprisingly good mobility. 

Give it a go and let us know how it works for you!

[Michael Curran]

Dashel Barker + 8 ss

Dispatcher

Rifles x 3 = 18

Executioner = 9

Pale Rider = 11

Guard = 4

I have hounds, and Executioner, and a guard available for summoning.  I will have to buy cavalry if I enjoy playing this bully of a Barker 😉

[Hot4Perdita]

So I just played my first Dashel crew for 3e. Got a question:

The rifleman can use focus to increase their shooting range by 10”. My opponent seemed to think that when I do that I would lose my +flips when I use the focus. No where on the card does it say that you lose the effects of focus when you do that. All it says is lower the condition by 1. Per the rules, every time you lower focus by 1, you get the benefits of +flips for that duel. Any insights on this, and where this might be referenced if true?

[Dark Reaper]

You spend your focus for something else. You can spend another point to get a + to the duel and dmg flip if you want to. 

[Hot4Perdita]

12 hours ago, Dark Reaper said:

You spend your focus for something else. You can spend another point to get a + to the duel and dmg flip if you want to. 

So you are saying you don’t get the benefit of focus when getting the 10” range? Any reference in the rules for that?

[Dark Reaper]

You lower your focus condition to gain +10" range. I don't really understand why it would be clearer than that.  Usually you lower your focus to do something else.

[CD1248]

1 hour ago, Hot4Perdita said:

So you are saying you don’t get the benefit of focus when getting the 10” range? Any reference in the rules for that?

Focus doesn't just apply it's benefit whenever it gets lowered, it is lowered as a cost to providing it's benefit. A single point of Focus cannot satisfy the cost for two different effects that each require you to lower focus in exchange for something.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

So you are saying you don’t get the benefit of focus when getting the 10” range? Any reference in the rules for that?

Read the rules for focus. You can spend it to give you those bonus flips. It's not a side effect that just happens when I lower it. 

I can spend $5 and get a pint of beer. That doesn't mean every time I spend$5 on anything I get a pint automatically. 

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

So you are saying you don’t get the benefit of focus when getting the 10” range? Any reference in the rules for that?

Please read Focused +X again.

Quote

Focused +X: Before performing an opposed duel, this model may lower the value of this Condition by one to receive a  to the duel (and any resulting damage flip this model makes).

You're acting like it says "When the value of this condition is lowered by one, it receives a to the duel..." or that Sniper says "When this model lowers the value of its Focused condition by 1, ..."

Instead, each of the effects says "it may lower the value of its Focused Condition by 1 to ....".  The result of that is that if you want both of the effects, you have to lower it by one for each of them.  That is, you have to lower it twice.

There are effects in the game that say things like "Discard a card to _____" and abilities that say "When this model discards a card, ____" so that multiple things happen due to the card being discard.  That (one effect happening as a reaction to the cost of the other effect being paid) isn't how Focused and Sniper are written.

 

[Hot4Perdita]

31 minutes ago, Adran said:

Read the rules for focus. You can spend it to give you those bonus flips. It's not a side effect that just happens when I lower it. 

I can spend $5 and get a pint of beer. That doesn't mean every time I spend$5 on anything I get a pint automatically. 

From the Rifleman card:

Sniper: When this model takes a (projectile) Action, it may lower the value of its Focused Condition by 1 to treat the Action as having +10" range.

From the rulebook: 

Focused +X: Before performing an opposed duel, this model may lower the value of this Condition by one to receive a + to the duel (and any resulting damage flip this model makes).

 

Without it explicitly saying that you don’t get both benefits, I can see how it can be debated both ways. In my opinion, since it does not discern that you must choose, I would argue that that when he lowers to get the 10”, he also gets the +. 

[Cronex13]

But it does say explicitely. Say you have focus 1 on a riflemen.

You may lower the focus condition by 1 to extend the range by 10". This is an ability from the rifleman.

Or

You may lower the focus condition by 1 to gain a +flip to the duel and damage flips, which comes from the main rulebook. If you only have focus +1, you can only lower it by 1, and can thus only do one of these

[Cronex13]

Focused is just a condition, it doesn't do anything by itself. You can spend it in the way dictated in the rulebook, or you can spend it the way the rifleman card dictates. 

[Hot4Perdita]

3 hours ago, Cronex13 said:

But it does say explicitely. Say you have focus 1 on a riflemen.

You may lower the focus condition by 1 to extend the range by 10". This is an ability from the rifleman.

True, and then by the rulebook, when you lower the focus by 1, you get the plus flips. The Sniper ability adds the 10” kicker to the focus condition. According to the rulebook, anytime you lower focus by 1, you get +flips. When the Sniper says lower the focus by 1, then that kicks in the rulebook +flips, then, by the sniper ability, you get the additional 10” range. No where on the card does it say that the 10” range negates what you get from the rulebook says you get by lowering focus by 1. Based on knowledge of other abilities in the game, if they did not want you to get both, then it should read something like this: 

Sniper: When this model takes a (projectile) Action, it may lower the value of its Focused Condition by 1 to treat the Action as having +10" range instead of receiving a + to the duel.

Or:

Sniper: When this model takes a (projectile) Action, it may lower the value of its Focused Condition by 1 to treat the Action as having +10" range. This duel does not receive a +.

 

Consistent with other abilities in the game with different models, if they didn’t want you to benefit from both, there would be a rule in the book or notation on the ability forbidding it.

[Cronex13]

The issue with that argument is the rulebook doesn't say "whenever you lower the focus by 1, you get plus flips." 

The rulebook says you may lower focus for plus flips. Not whenever focus is lowered, you get plus flips. Important difference

[4thstringer]

2 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

when you lower the focus by 1, you get the plus flips. 

 

It specifically does not say that.  I have attached the rule book image, which I attempted and failed to circle the relevant part.