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Timing question: Into the Fray vs. Black Blood


Qracy

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Hi everybody,

in our local community, one question came up I am not absolutly sure to answer:

What is the correct timing for the following situation:

 

Both models have 1 health remaining.

Viktoria Chambers attacks a model with black blood and kills that model.

Black Blood says, "After this model suffers damage from an Action or Trigger, every model within :new-Pulse:1 suffers 1 damage."

Into the Fray: "After this model kills an enemy model, all friendly models with this ability heal 2."

 

Question: Does Viktoria survive or not?

What is the correct explanation?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

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Check damage timing in pg 34, the damage triggers happens in step 5, killing triggers in step 6. So Viktoria would die by black blood before being able to heal with Into the Fray.

However if both would trigger at the same time (same step) the active model could chose the order, but it's not that case.

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Not sure about the correct timing:

Black Blood model is damaged, beginning with step 1: no soulstone used, then step 2: flip damage, black blood models suffers damage, step 3: no effect, step 4: black blood reduces health, step 5: black blood ability takes effect, deals 1 damage to Viktoria.

What happens now? Do you begin with step 1-6 for Viktoria and handle every step, before goning to step 6 for the black blood model?

Or do you finish step 6 for the black blood model and then start with step 1 for Viktoria?

Or are both damages delt simultanously?

 

I just want to understand it correctly...

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It is unfortunately somewhat ambiguous. 

Either

1. You can interrupt one set of damage with another set of damage, in which case black blood fully resolves at damage timing step 5 of Viktoria's attack (in which case black blood should remove Viktoria from the table before she gets a chance to heal),

or

2. You finish applying the damage to the Black Blood model before applying the Black Blood Damage (in which case Viktoria will heal up from killing the black blood model).

Several different iterations of this question have come up on the forums, and there is no clear consensus. You can check the posting history to find it (such as the 'exploding so hard you heal yourself' thread).

Hopefully your gaming group can come to a collective agreement for your local games until we have an official answer!

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11 minutes ago, Qracy said:

What happens now? Do you begin with step 1-6 for Viktoria and handle every step, before goning to step 6 for the black blood model?

Or do you finish step 6 for the black blood model and then start with step 1 for Viktoria?

Or are both damages delt simultanously?

I'd say the black blood damage is resolved (going through steps 1-6 for Viktoria) before going to the step 6 of the original attack, so Viktoria would be dead by the time the other one triggers.

I'd say that one, but not 100% sure about this one tho (specially with the pg25 notes about healing being first when a model is killed). In the case that, somehow, both would resolve at the same time then Vik would survive, so let's wait for more opinions. But I'm leaning towards Vik dying heroically.

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3 hours ago, Qracy said:

Not sure about the correct timing:

Black Blood model is damaged, beginning with step 1: no soulstone used, then step 2: flip damage, black blood models suffers damage, step 3: no effect, step 4: black blood reduces health, step 5: black blood ability takes effect, deals 1 damage to Viktoria.

What happens now? Do you begin with step 1-6 for Viktoria and handle every step, before goning to step 6 for the black blood model?

Yes, you do.

Because in order to resolve “deals 1 damage to Viktoria” you have to go through the damage sequence.

Just like if a model had an ability “When this model suffers damage, push it 1” in any direction”, that push happens during the damage sequence.  

3 hours ago, Qracy said:

Or do you finish step 6 for the black blood model and then start with step 1 for Viktoria?

Or are both damages delt simultanously?

The only notion of simultaneous damage that exists is for blasts, Auras and pulses.

If you had Viktoria and a bunch of Mercenary models clustered around the Nephilim model, the Black Blood damage will be simultaneous for Viktoria and all of the Mercenary models.  It doesn’t retroactively become simultaneous with the damage that caused it to happen.  (You’re on Step 5 of the Damage Timing for the Damage that the Nephilim just took.  The Black Blood damage is starting its own Damage Timing from Step 1 again.  Trying to mix the two together would require making up rules.)

 

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Well, I suppose I should provide the reasoning for my disagreement!

Overall opinion:

Viktoria survives.

Reasoning.

  1. Damage is an effect - "The most common effect of an Action is damage" (page 23 of the digital rules).
  2. You can't interrupt an effect to resolve another effect:
    1. "Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves... in these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect." (page 34)

Therefore, even if you resolve Black Blood at step five of Viktoria's damage and you create a new damage effect, you still have to finish resolving the current damage effect before moving on to Black Blood's damage effect.

There's also some 'after' shenanigans that you can bring up (since page 34 has some stuff relevant to anything that says "after"), but in any interpretation, if you apply the "Black Blood damage effect happens after Viktoria's damage effect is fully resolved" reasoning, Viktoria will survive.

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6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, I suppose I should provide the reasoning for my disagreement!

Overall opinion:

Viktoria survives.

Reasoning.

  1. Damage is an effect - "The most common effect of an Action is damage" (page 23 of the digital rules).
  2. You can't interrupt an effect to resolve another effect:
    1. "Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves... in these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect." (page 34)

Therefore, even if you resolve Black Blood at step five of Viktoria's damage and you create a new damage effect, you still have to finish resolving the current damage effect before moving on to Black Blood's damage effect.

There's also some 'after' shenanigans that you can bring up (since page 34 has some stuff relevant to anything that says "after"), but in any interpretation, if you apply the "Black Blood damage effect happens after Viktoria's damage effect is fully resolved" reasoning, Viktoria will survive.

This interpretation misses a couple of points form the rules (as far as I am concerned)

Step 5  Any effects that happen after a model is damaged or after a model is reduced to a specific health resolve at this point.

Step 6 If a model is at 0 health it is killed, then resolve the following effects.

a. Resolve any effects that would heal or replace the killed model. If this effect would bring the model above 0 health, it is no longer killed

b Resolve any after killing triggers.

c Any effects that resolve after the model is Killed (such as placeign a corpse or scrap marker) resolve at this point.

d The killed model is removed from the game.

 

 

Assuming you follow Manical Cackles view of the rules (Resolve doesn't mean resolve)

You would fully resolve the damage, meaning that there is an effect of deal 1 damage to the vik on the "stack". There is then an effect of Heal the Vik on the stack.

You would then fully resolve the deal 1 damage to the Vik effect, and there are no new healing effects to put on the stack. So why should you stop at step 6 a and not go through the process to step 6 d and remove the vik from the table before you then go on and try and heal the vik with the next effect in the "stack".

 

So for the Vik to survive you have to apply several different meanings to the word "Resolve" which is sometimes instantly, and sometimes add it to a stack, and sometimes take from the stack and apply instantly, with no real guidance for the rules as to which version of the Word "Resolve" you should use here.

Strictly following this interpretation of the rule book, no demise effect works at all. Which means that it can't be the intended reading.

 

TLDR

Vik dies, both following the generally accepted timing rules and following a strict reading of Manical cackles timing rules.

 

 

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@Adran the reasoning I posted here is updated compared to previous posts.

Step five just instructs you to resolve black blood, which my above post accounts for. Essentially this interpretation would be

  1. Get to step 5, resolve black blood.
  2. This creates a damage effect.
  3. Page 34's sequential effects states that if resolving an effect generates an additional effect, you finish the current effect(s), and then resolve the created effects in the order they were created. So if black blood hits nothing, no additional effects are created. However, if black blood does hit something, an additional damage effect is created.

Page 23 refers to damage from an action as the most common example of an effect, so this is my justification for treating damage as an effect.

So this updated view does resolve Black Blood at step 5. The damage effect from it just has to wait until the current effects are resolved.

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8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So this updated view does resolve Black Blood at step 5. The damage effect from it just has to wait until the current effects are resolved.

I think the contention is:

Resolve damage effect on Black Blood model
Step 5: Black Blood adds a damage effect on Viktoria to the resolution stack
Step 6: Into the Fray adds a healing effect on Viktoria to the resolution stack
Finish resolving the effect (model is removed, etc)

Now resolve damage effect on Viktoria
Viktoria is killed and removed from play

Now resolve healing effect on Viktoria
... but she's already dead and gone

So either way, she still dies.

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9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Adran the reasoning I posted here is updated compared to previous posts.

Step five just instructs you to resolve black blood, which my above post accounts for. Essentially this interpretation would be

  1. Get to step 5, resolve black blood.
  2. This creates a damage effect.
  3. Page 34's sequential effects states that if resolving an effect generates an additional effect, you finish the current effect(s), and then resolve the created effects in the order they were created. So if black blood hits nothing, no additional effects are created. However, if black blood does hit something, an additional damage effect is created.

Page 23 refers to damage from an action as the most common example of an effect, so this is my justification for treating damage as an effect.

So this updated view does resolve Black Blood at step 5. The damage effect from it just has to wait until the current effects are resolved.

You haven't resolved black blood if the effect of black blood is being left unresolved.

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Just now, Kadeton said:

I think the contention is:

Resolve damage effect on Black Blood model
Step 5: Black Blood adds a damage effect on Viktoria to the resolution stack
Step 6: Into the Fray adds a healing effect on Viktoria to the resolution stack
Finish resolving the effect (model is removed, etc)

Now resolve damage effect on Viktoria
Step 6: Viktoria is killed and removed from play

Now resolve healing effect on Viktoria
... but she's already dead and gone

So either way, she still dies.

Even if you resolve it in this order (which is a pretty valid view), when you get to Black Blood damage step 6a, you are instructed to resolve any heal effects on the killed model. So since there is a pending healing effect, you exit black blood damage at step 6a and proceed to the next effect (which will result in her healing).

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1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Even if you resolve it in this order (which is a pretty valid view), when you get to Black Blood damage step 6a, you are instructed to resolve any heal effects on the killed model. So since there is a pending healing effect, you exit black blood damage at step 6a and proceed to the next effect (which will result in her healing).

I'm not sure how you reconcile the idea that "resolve any heal effects on the killed model" overrides "fully resolve an effect before moving on to the next", but all the other "resolve ... now" instructions in the damage timing don't. By that, I don't mean to say that you're wrong, just that I can't quite follow the logic.

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5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Adran the reasoning I posted here is updated compared to previous posts.

Step five just instructs you to resolve black blood, which my above post accounts for. Essentially this interpretation would be

  1. Get to step 5, resolve black blood.
  2. This creates a damage effect.
  3. Page 34's sequential effects states that if resolving an effect, you finish the current effect(s), and then resolve the created effects in the order they were created. So if black blood hits nothing, no additional effects are created. However, if black blood does hit something, an additional damage effect is created.

Page 23 refers to damage from an action as the most common example of an effect, so this is my justification for treating damage as an effect.

So this updated view does resolve Black Blood at step 5. The damage effect from it just has to wait until the current effects are resolved.

I'm pretty sure in my above run through I was treating damage as an effect. I am also treating healing as an effect

So in a little more detail

Vik hits nephlim. Step 5 happens Black blood happens, there is a 1 damage effect on the "stack". we then resolve step 6, a does nothing, b puts a healing effect on the stack, puts placing a corpse marker on the "stack" and D removes the model.

 

So at this point we have 3 stacked effects, Damage the Vik, heal the Vik and drop a corpse. (These are all effects, the timing docuyment refres to the last 2 as effects)

We do the point of damage to the vik, go through the damage timing chart, and the only effects that it would produce are a new place a corpse marker effect, so then we remove the Vik.

We then resolve the heal effect, but the vik is no longer on the table.  

We then place the nephlim corpse and place the Viks corpse.

 

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Even if you resolve it in this order (which is a pretty valid view), when you get to Black Blood damage step 6a, you are instructed to resolve any heal effects on the killed model. So since there is a pending healing effect, you exit black blood damage at step 6a and proceed to the next effect (which will result in her healing).

How is this instruction different to the Step 5 instruction to resolve any after damaging effects? Why Does 1 timing step break your rules but the other doesn't?

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11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Sorry for the choppy answers.

But note 6a doesnt say if resolving this heals the model. It says if it would heal the model. This supports the view that 6a includes heals that havent happened yet.

It only supports that view if you don't mind ignoring any number of text samples.  😕 

For instance, in the Aura rules:

Quote

Auras are not cumulative. If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the Aura would change its game state in some way), then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice.

and in the Activation phase rules:

Quote

If a model would gain or end Fast, Slow, or Stunned (pg. 29) during an Activation, the effects of the Condition come into effect immediately and are ignored as soon as the Condition has ended.

and Conditions:

Quote

If an Action would kill a model from damage suffered from a Condition (such as an Action that states “Target suffers 2 damage from the Burning Condition”), the model taking the Action is considered to have killed the model.

or for that matter:

Quote

Thus, if a model was Pushed through three Pyre Markers and a single Pit Trap Marker, it would suffer the effects of moving through a single Pyre Marker and a single Pit Trap Marker.

or:

Quote

Buried models cannot be Buried. If a Buried model would be Buried by a game effect, it ignores that game effect.

Models that are not Buried ignore any effects that would cause them to Unbury.

In other words, the most common use of "would" involves situations where an effect is stated to do something that another passage is stating that can't happen, what sometimes gets described as the "effect 'trying to do' something, whether it's going to succeed or not" situation.

It's not time travel, or events happening in the future.  It's, in the case of healing, an effect says to heal the model, whether or not that healing actually results in a change of the model's health or not.

 

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Well, part of the issue is I don't think the rules are internally consistent (and suspect that perhaps they were written at different times?)

"After" is one of the most thoroughly defined words in the game. After abilities "happen after the effect in question is resolved." The sequential effects section and even the simultaneous effects section carefully provide a way to not have to deal with effects simultaneously or nested within one another. The timing section seems like it is supposed to be interpreted holistically to me (the 'after' section and 'sequential effects' are complements to the damage timing, not alternatives).

Thus letting an ability with 'after' in its text (like black blood in this example) finish resolving BEFORE the effect that caused it (Viktoria's damage) seems pretty incompatible with the rules to me. Why write such specific rules for how to apply 'after' effects and how to sequence effects, then have a damage section that ignores those rules that were just outlined?

Of course, doing it my way (where you put everything into an order of resolving it one after the other) certainly requires a bit of word-maneuvering, which could continue forever. For example, with your 'would' examples there, many of them do seem to refer to events before they happen (before you give a model a condition, here are the rules for how to apply it). But now I'm getting into such a massive hole of pedantry that it just becomes rules lawyering really.

My understanding is that there was a significant rule in the closed beta that was removed, and without that rule, these rules seem somewhat irreconcilable. So I doubt there is a perfect answer to the question. However, I can't imagine that removing of the rule from the closed beta was anything but intentional - if they wanted the rules to work that way, they'd have left it in.

The biggest appeal I can offer of my interpretation is though it requires a broad interpretation of some rules, it has resulted in very clear gameplay for me so far (Viktoria lives in this example, you can't explode so hard you heal yourself, Nekima dies when killed by a one health model, etc).

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