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Ogid

Cover, Concealment and shockwave projectile attacks

Question

Both Concealment and Cover impose negative bonuses to the attack if a model is the target of the attack. However some shockwave attacks (which doesn't target at all, just drop a marker at a point of the table) have also the projectile icon. Does any of those 2 rules (Cover and Concealment) affect the flip of a shockwave attack, or the projectile icon is there to avoid those abilities to being used while engaged?

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On a related note, since shockwaves do not target, do they get around Incorporeal and other effects that conditionally are predicated on being the target of an attack action?

 

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INCORPOREAL: Reduce all damage this model suffers from Attack Actions by 1, to a minimum of 0....

 

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8 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

On a related note, since shockwaves do not target, do they get around Incorporeal and other effects that conditionally are predicated on being the target of an attack action?

If the shockwave is generated by an attack action, then the damage will be reduced by things like Incorporeal or Middle of the storm (if :ToS-Range:). These don't require targeting, just being damaged.

Shockwaves do get around defensive triggers or:-flip to the duel or the damage tho.

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15 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Shockwaves do get around defensive triggers or:-flip to the duel or the damage tho.

Would you help me out and explain why? I know Blasts are unaffected by effects that increase the damage, is this also true for Shockwaves? if so, why?

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The damage a model suffers from a :blast is unaffected by effects that increase the damage the original target suffered from the attack.

So triggers are part of the attack action therefore they follow the actions effects like if it has a :ranged,(Except they specifically are unaffected by Cover and Concealment)

 

 

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Another question, Shockwaves still go off even if the original target of the attack is killed correct?

E.g. Attack action does 2/3/4 damage and has a trigger that generates a shockwave. the trigger doesn't state any timing so its assumed to resolve after succeeding, 2F in the timing chart. The damage is resolved in step 2E and kills the target, then the shockwave in 2F correct?

 

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2 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

Would you help me out and explain why? I know Blasts are unaffected by effects that increase the damage, is this also true for Shockwaves? if so, why?

The advantage of shockwaves is (in most cases) the player is targeting a point and doing a simple duel; so any defensive tech around not being hit (Distracted spam, manipulative, serene counterance, chi...) is ignored. As the affected model don't get to make a defensive flip, all defensive (or offensive) tech in their defensive triggers (like fade away or dissarming) are also ignored.

Shockwaves deal a fixed ammount of damage, while these aren't usually big numbers, they are easier to deliver than an attack that target, it can damage multiple models and deal the damage you would do to a model with hard to wound anyway unless you expend a lot of resources (focus plus cheat fate). Plus some shockwaves can be spammed (Misaki's or Wong's for example), making them very dangerous versus clumped enemies without damage reduction.

5 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

Another question, Shockwaves still go off even if the original target of the attack is killed correct?

E.g. Attack action does 2/3/4 damage and has a trigger that generates a shockwave. the trigger doesn't state any timing so its assumed to resolve after succeeding, 2F in the timing chart. The damage is resolved in step 2E and kills the target, then the shockwave in 2F correct?

mmm, that's a bit general. This one depends on the wording of that ability, which one are you refering?

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42 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

On a related note, since shockwaves do not target, do they get around Incorporeal and other effects that conditionally are predicated on being the target of an attack action?

Incorporeal reduces damage from attack actions, not when a model is targeted, which may well explain your confusion. 

8 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

Another question, Shockwaves still go off even if the original target of the attack is killed correct?

 

I think the answer to this question will depend on the exact phrasing. I can't think of an action that has a trigger to create a shockwave. So every shockwave I can think of doesn't target a model that could die. 

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21 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

Would you help me out and explain why? I know Blasts are unaffected by effects that increase the damage, is this also true for Shockwaves? 

 

You seem to be confused about shockwaves. They don't suffer cover or serene counance because they don't target a model. They wouldnt suffer a negative flip for damage because they don't flip for damage. If they had a trigger to cause extra damage, then they would cause extra damage, but it couldn't be critical strike because its wording doesn't work ( I think, not got it to hand).

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54 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

Another question, Shockwaves still go off even if the original target of the attack is killed correct?

E.g. Attack action does 2/3/4 damage and has a trigger that generates a shockwave. the trigger doesn't state any timing so its assumed to resolve after succeeding, 2F in the timing chart. The damage is resolved in step 2E and kills the target, then the shockwave in 2F correct?

 

Looking through triggers, I can't find one that adds shockwave markers (unless it's additional markers to an existing shockwave attack) to a non-shockwave attack.  Either way, they are all When Resolving triggers.  So is there a specific trigger in mind we could look at?

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21 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

Another question, Shockwaves still go off even if the original target of the attack is killed correct?

E.g. Attack action does 2/3/4 damage and has a trigger that generates a shockwave. the trigger doesn't state any timing so its assumed to resolve after succeeding, 2F in the timing chart. The damage is resolved in step 2E and kills the target, then the shockwave in 2F correct?

Your theoretical situation has a coincidental different answer.  If an After Succeeding or After Resolving trigger has a target and that target is no longer in play, the trigger "has no effect".

On the other hand, as far as I know Shockwave is used exclusively in the effect text of actions, and the only time the word Shockwave appears in trigger text is for "When resolving" triggers that alter the effects of an action (that already has Shockwave in its text).

Going through the cards, I can find no action that generates a Shockwave as a secondary effect.  Pretty much any Shockwave action with a target is something like Arson where you're targeting a marker or some other model to use instead of dropping a shockwave marker.

As far as I can tell, Actions that generate Shockwaves are classified as Attacks (and have * in the Rst column) because of the side effect differences between the current situation and when they were classified as tactical actions (with - in the Rst column).  And they put the line

Quote

Shockwaves are unaffected by Cover and Concealment.

in the Shockwave rules to deal with those two side effects of being Attacks that are usually :ranged.

So if you look at something like Misaki's Lightning Strike action (the example in the book), the consequence are:

  • Because it's an Attack, the damage is reduced by Incorporeal.
  • Because it's a :ranged Action, it can't be used while engaged.

 

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22 minutes ago, Clement said:

So is there a specific trigger in mind we could look at?

No sorry, completely hypothetical but I think with the help of everyone I have a better grasp of Shockwaves, THANKS!

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