Multiple Misery and Life Leech auras

[Erik1978]

So auras don't stack, which means even if you are surrounded by 3 Sorrows and gain stunned, you won't tkae 3 x 1 damage.

But can 1 Sorrow give 1 damage, while the 2 others each move 2" because the aura then affects 3 different models?

Same goes for activating within 3 Sorrows regarding Life Leech: Will your model take 1 damage and 1 Sorrow heals 1, or will your model take 1 damage but all 3 Sorrows heal 1?

[Hot4Perdita]

Let me add to this question: Do auras and pulses require LOS to affect other models?

[Tors]

The sorrows aren't moved. It's 1 DMG to enemy or move enemy.

[WUWU]

7 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Let me add to this question: Do auras and pulses require LOS to affect other models?

Yes they do, this is mentioned specifically in the pulse and aura sections of the rules pdf

[santaclaws01]

Aura's can only affect a model a single time. Misery only effects enemies, so can only be used one at a time(but it's your choice which model's misery is used). Life Leech affects an enemy model and affects the model with it. The affect on the model with it isn't contingent on the enemy being affected, so the enemy will be damaged once, and every model with life leach in range will heal 1. 

[solkan]

3 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

So auras don't stack, which means even if you are surrounded by 3 Sorrows and gain stunned, you won't tkae 3 x 1 damage.

But can 1 Sorrow give 1 damage, while the 2 others each move 2" because the aura then affects 3 different models?

There's a very important word that's easy to overlook when reading Misery:  "this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage."  (I'm pointing this out because it feels like I've made the same mistake describing what Misery does, and I'm not sure if the word snuck in there or if I misread it a few times...)

In other words, Misery doesn't specify a choice moving the model with Misery and damaging the enemy model.  The choice is between damaging the enemy model or moving the enemy model.  So only one model is going to be affected by multiple overlapping Misery auras.

3 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Same goes for activating within 3 Sorrows regarding Life Leech: Will your model take 1 damage and 1 Sorrow heals 1, or will your model take 1 damage but all 3 Sorrows heal 1?

All of the sorrows heal 1, and the model that activated suffers 1 damage.  Because "this model Heals 1 and the enemy model suffers 1 damage" isn't specifying that the healing is dependent on the enemy model suffering damage from that model (or even actually suffering that damage, in case it gets reduced to 0).

There's a really interesting rules interaction, though, which may matter in various scenarios:

- When the enemy model activates in range of multiple models with Life Leech, the control of the activating model chooses which one of the Life Leech aura instances inflicts the point of damage.

- All of the auras are set into motion and try to inflict the damage, and they all heal their generating models 1 point, but only one of the auras actually resolves "the enemy model suffers 1 damage", regardless of whether that 1 damage is prevented.

So if you're ever in a situation where it matters which Sorrow inflicts the 1 damage, it's going to go the wrong way.

 

[Erik1978]

It seems strange the model which takes the damage, chooses which Sorrow damages her. (But it's consistent with other rules of course.)

I shouldn't read stat cards late at night, I obviously miss tiny words...

[Ogid]

So this mean that the "Once per activation" isn't used unless the aura affect a model and change the game state, and as this aura state "may", then the user can choose not to activate the aura to avoid wasting it.

However if Missery wording were:

Quote

Once per Activation. After an enemy model within 6 gains Stunned or a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist Ability, this model must either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage.

Then, would the aura go to waste or would it still work like now?

• Waste: All Misery auras in range would try to activate, only 1 activate but all are considered used as they triggered.
• Like now: All Misery auras in range would try to activate, only 1 activate and as the other didn't change the game state in any way, they weren't considered used.

 

[Adran]

27 minutes ago, Ogid said:

So this mean that the "Once per activation" isn't used unless the aura affect a model and change the game state, and as this aura state "may", then the user can choose not to activate the aura to avoid wasting it.

However if Missery wording were:

I think the difference would be that the model affected by the misery aura would choose which one affects it. Otherwise it would be the same. 

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Ogid said:

So this mean that the "Once per activation" isn't used unless the aura affect a model and change the game state, and as this aura state "may", then the user can choose not to activate the aura to avoid wasting it.

However if Missery wording were:

Then, would the aura go to waste or would it still work like now?

• Waste: All Misery auras in range would try to activate, only 1 activate but all are considered used as they triggered.
• Like now: All Misery auras in range would try to activate, only 1 activate and as the other didn't change the game state in any way, they weren't considered used.

Misery is both a “once per” Ability and a “may” ability.  Misery doesn’t go off unless you want it to, and it can only go off once per Activation for the generating model.

That contrasts with Life Leech which doesn’t say “may”, so always tries to go off.

So what happens is something like this:

Simple case:  Player A’s gains Focused +1 in range of Pandora.  Looks over at Player B and asks “Do you want to use Misery on me?”  If B says no, Pandora waits until the next time a model gains a Condition to use her Misery.

Multiple model case:

Player A’s a soulstone crazy Arcanist with a Soulstone Miner surrounded my Candy and 3 Sorrows (everyone’s within Aura 4).  The Soulstone Miner activates and gains Stunned to get that Soulstone, and both players realize that satisfied the conditions for those Miseries.  Now the Neverborn player chooses which of the Miseries to set off.  (Note:  There’s absolutely no benefit to having all (or even just more than one) of the nearby models with Misery say “Yes, I want to use my ability.”  That would be a pretty obvious player mistake, to the point where one should really just stop and tell the other player “No, that’s a stupid thing to do.  Choose one of them instead.”  But if someone really really wanted to, they could set off all of the extra Misery abilities for no benefit.)  The ones that don’t set off their Misery haven’t used it, they can still set theirs off if their conditions are satisfied later that Activation.

Then, of course, because it’s the start of the Soulstone miner’s Activation, Life Leech on all of those Sorrows and Candy gets resolved.  Unlike Misery, there’s no “may” so all of the Life Leech Auras go off, and the Soulstone Miner’s controller chooses which one of the four models’ (Candy and the 3 Sorrows) Aura it gets affected by (determining which one of the four it suffers 1 damage from).  All four models with Life Leech Heal 1.

 

[Ogid]

Ty guys for the answers, but in this case these are 2 different... @Adran answer implies that even if they are forced to trigger (wording changed from may to must), only the Misery that the other player chooses would trigger, all the others would attemp to trigger but as they can't affect the model wouldn't set off. @solkan one implies in that case all auras would be considered used even if they didn't change anything.

Which would be the right one?

[santaclaws01]

11 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Ty guys for the answers, but in this case these are 2 different... @Adran answer implies that even if they are forced to trigger (wording changed from may to must), only the Misery that the other player chooses would trigger, all the others would attemp to trigger but as they can't affect the model wouldn't set off. @solkan one implies in that case all auras would be considered used even if they didn't change anything.

Which would be the right one?

Solkan is definitely saying the misery is only used if the player is saying they're using it.

[Adran]

20 hours ago, Ogid said:

Ty guys for the answers, but in this case these are 2 different... @Adran answer implies that even if they are forced to trigger (wording changed from may to must), only the Misery that the other player chooses would trigger, all the others would attemp to trigger but as they can't affect the model wouldn't set off. @solkan one implies in that case all auras would be considered used even if they didn't change anything.

Which would be the right one?

It's a slightly hypothetical question, because such wording does not exist in the game at the moment. And I'd hope never would. 

I'm not sure the rules fully cover the situation of a once per turn aura that must happen, but can't effect the thing it must effect. 

EDIT- although its probably solkan with the right answer,

 

[solkan]

13 hours ago, Ogid said:

Ty guys for the answers, but in this case these are 2 different... @Adran answer implies that even if they are forced to trigger (wording changed from may to must), only the Misery that the other player chooses would trigger, all the others would attemp to trigger but as they can't affect the model wouldn't set off. @solkan one implies in that case all auras would be considered used even if they didn't change anything.

Which would be the right one?

There's an important distinction to be made.

If an ability says "may", and it has a "once per" limitation, the reason for specifying "may" in the ability is so that it doesn't get used up the very first time the condition for the ability happens.

If an ability doesn't say "may", then it has to happen when its condition occurs, and if it has a "once per" limitation, it gets used up the first time that condition happens (for appropriate period depending on the limitation).

For example, look at Flurry:

Quote

Flurry:  Once per Turn.  After this model resolves a Action during its Activation, it may discard a card to take that Action again.

Consider the following sequence:

• Ice Golem with Fast activates.
• It declares Huge Fist and kills the model engaging it.
• It declares a Walk around a corner to get to another opponent.
• It declares Huge Fist and doesn't quite kill its opponent.  (Or the opponent doesn't stay killed (see below)...)
• After resolving the second Huge Fist action, the Ice Golem invokes Flurry to take Huge Fist again.

You don't question that's legal, right?  Flurry says "Once per Turn", and you're allowed to wait until when you want to use it because it says "may".

If you want to see the difference, there's Marcus's Primal Domain ability:

Quote

Primal Domain:  Once per Activation.  After a friendly model within 6 discards a Mutation Upgrade, draw a card.

That means that the first time each Activation a friendly model within 6 discards a Mutation Upgrade, Marcus's player draws a card.  That happens whether or not Marcus's controller has a full hand of jokers and 13's and doesn't want doesn't want to draw a new card because it's just going to get discarded.

For instance, the Jackalope is standing next to Marcus with three Mutation upgrades on it.  And an opposing Ice Golem (with Fast) just walked up to it and proceeded using Huge Fist on it.

The point I think Adran was trying to make was the rules set up the following sort of ability as really unfortunate to have multiple instances of:

Quote

Hypothetical Bad Damage Aura:  Once per turn, after an enemy model within 200 Activates, it suffers 1 damage.

especially combined with an ability that specifies that the model draws line of sight ignoring blocking terrain and intervening models (so that there'd be no way to avoid having the auras overlap).  With Hypothetical Bad Damage Aura, the first enemy model to activate each turn suffers 1 damage, whether you want it to happen or not.  You'd have to get into summoning scenarios to see that aura cause more than 1 damage the first time the opposing player activates a model.

 

[Mortarion]

On 8/18/2019 at 3:51 PM, solkan said:

Then, of course, because it’s the start of the Soulstone miner’s Activation, Life Leech on all of those Sorrows and Candy gets resolved.  Unlike Misery, there’s no “may” so all of the Life Leech Auras go off, and the Soulstone Miner’s controller chooses which one of the four models’ (Candy and the 3 Sorrows) Aura it gets affected by (determining which one of the four it suffers 1 damage from).  All four models with Life Leech Heal 1.

Eum... Candy does not have Life Leech. And the rule about Auras not being cumulative only prevents multiple Auras with the same name from affecting the same model. So the Sorows' Life Leech Auras would not prevent Candy's Aura (Corrupted Innocence) from affecting the Soulstone miner.