Bury, End of Game and Schemes

[gozer]

The schemes Deliver a Message and Take Prisoner have an end of the game condition that states something to the effect of: "...if the secretly chosen model was killed by a model which was friendly to it, gain 1 VP."

Bury rules on pg 34 state "If a model is buried when the game ends, it is killed."

Per the Killed rules on pg 25:

"Killed models are always considered to be killed by the model that generated the Action or Ability that killed them (as well as by that model’s Crew). If a model is killed by another effect (such as a Condition or Hazardous Terrain), it is not considered to have been killed by any player, model, or Crew."

So, is a model that dies at the end of the game because it was buried count as a being killed by the Action or Ability that buried it? Or, is the buried model not considered to have been killed by any player, model, or Crew because dying due to being buried at the end of the game counts as a "another effect"?

This is pretty important for those two schemes because a player with bury-on-demand actions (e.g. Death Marshall's, Tara's Crew) could easily deny the end VP points, simply by burying their own model and letting them die at the end of the game.

[Paddywhack]

I would say it doesn't count as killed by any model as it's being Buried at the end of game that kills them. I could see how it might be interpreted the other way, so will be glad to see what others think.

 However, it's less a problem as most of the Bury effects I can find now indicate Enemy Only. No burying your guys to try and hid them turn 5. 

[gozer]

54 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I would say it doesn't count as killed by any model as it's being Buried at the end of game that kills them. I could see how it might be interpreted the other way, so will be glad to see what others think.

 However, it's less a problem as most of the Bury effects I can find now indicate Enemy Only. No burying your guys to try and hid them turn 5. 

It happened in my first M3E game. Opponent was playing Tara and I took the deliver a message scheme on her. Either she or one of her models buried her and we were both a little confused!

[Paddywhack]

41 minutes ago, gozer said:

It happened in my first M3E game. Opponent was playing Tara and I took the deliver a message scheme on her. Either she or one of her models buried her and we were both a little confused!

Ah - Stutter Time lets you Bury Friendly models, even Tara. In that case it does seem like Tara might be strong with those schemes, intentionally or not. 

[Adran]

I always assume they have been killed by the game effects, rather than the action. It's not an easy way round except in a few circumstances ( Tara being the main one).

[Kadeton]

The Action or Ability doesn't kill the model, it just Buries it.

The Bury effect kills the model if it's still Buried at the end of the game.

That's not substantially different to any other Action that causes an effect (e.g. "target gains Burning +1") that subsequently kills a model. No kill credit would be given in those circumstances either.

[Jesy Blue]

In the same vein, if a Ronin kills themselves with Final Sacrifice, they are friendly to themselves so it counts.  But if Youko makes Ronin use Final Sacrifice, is it an action from a model friendly to the Ronin?

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

In the same vein, if a Ronin kills themselves with Final Sacrifice, they are friendly to themselves so it counts.  But if Youko makes Ronin use Final Sacrifice, is it an action from a model friendly to the Ronin?

Yes. 

[gozer]

13 hours ago, Kadeton said:

The Action or Ability doesn't kill the model, it just Buries it.

The Bury effect kills the model if it's still Buried at the end of the game.

That's not substantially different to any other Action that causes an effect (e.g. "target gains Burning +1") that subsequently kills a model. No kill credit would be given in those circumstances either.

Yeah, that's right. I agree with everything you said.

My issue is really the implication of those rules regarding Deliver a Message and Take Prisoner as they relate to bury - specifically models that can self-bury like Tara. Literally, all Tara needs to do is Stutter Time on herself at turn 5 and it's impossible to complete either of those two scheme's end conditions.

Maybe the developers planned for this kind of interaction and while it's not that big of a deal, it's frustrating to see such a baseline method for VP denial.

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, gozer said:

Yeah, that's right. I agree with everything you said.

My issue is really the implication of those rules regarding Deliver a Message and Take Prisoner as they relate to bury - specifically models that can self-bury like Tara. Literally, all Tara needs to do is Stutter Time on herself at turn 5 and it's impossible to complete either of those two scheme's end conditions.

Maybe the developers planned for this kind of interaction and while it's not that big of a deal, it's frustrating to see such a baseline method for VP denial.

Tara can't stutter time herself, its an attack, and you can't target yourself with an attack. Sure, anyone else in her crew can.

[gozer]

37 minutes ago, Adran said:

Tara can't stutter time herself, its an attack, and you can't target yourself with an attack. Sure, anyone else in her crew can.

Thank you for the correction! I mis-remembered it as a tactical action!

[diki]

So you can bury your opponents leader end game to achieve assassinate?

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, diki said:

So you can bury your opponents leader end game to achieve assassinate?

For the second point yes you can. (likewise vendetta)