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4thstringer

Rating the keywords- 2 months in

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33 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Since you are usually putting armor on her, the effects of the heal are amplified by that and her shielded.

Hmm.  I'm not sure that's not really overkill rather than synergy but I might give it a go!

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7 minutes ago, CrazzyTeddy said:

Why’s everyone rating my girl Perdita so poorly 😢

1. Finger on the trigger is less than worthless (because when they charge they can engage you, and then you can't use projectile actions and it doesn't give you the ability to shoot projectiles when engaged).

2. Enslaved neph got way worse.

3. Frank, the best model in the crew last edition, got hit so hard with the nerf bat that his hat still hasn't landed.

4. Monster Hunters, the second best model in the crew last edition, got similarly spanked and now die to a stiff breeze.

5. This edition finally made obeys useful, and they took them off of Perdita.

6.  Perdita crew wasn't effective last edition.

Keep in mind the first impressions could be wrong, but these are my reasons why she lands so low for me.

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If they are good - and I think they are - it's A Por El, Family Values, and Bravado that make them good. Ap efficiency, improved access to focus, card draw are all important. 

While some things are worse - mostly Monster Hunters, maybe Frank - Santiago and Nino are better. Papa and Abuela are different but pretty much par. Perdita is worse but feels in line with other strictly worse masters like Lucius, Reva, etc.

Now I don't have a meta unfortunately so this is theory-faux. But I think Family is competitive - albeit much more of a finesse crew than before. It's less about murdering everything and more about tempo control and ap efficiency. 

To that end Finger on the Trigger feels really efficient - it just means that Perdita is playing a second rank role. She sets stuff up and provides covering fire, canceling charge attacks and all that. 

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I think Perdita is quite solid as her Crew is very synergistic and resource effective. They draw cards, she can cycle them and kill key models with analyse weakness or multiple weak models. Df 6 is solid too. Focus comes easy, I find the family in total quite decent to play.

The Pale Rider is just bullshit and I decided to not play him anymore. He is severely imbalanced (as most of the riders are). They just gain fate tokens way too fast, are very tanky, good scheme runners if needed and have ride with me. Absurd. 

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4 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

1. Finger on the trigger is less than worthless (because when they charge they can engage you, and then you can't use projectile actions and it doesn't give you the ability to shoot projectiles when engaged).

2. Enslaved neph got way worse.

3. Frank, the best model in the crew last edition, got hit so hard with the nerf bat that his hat still hasn't landed.

4. Monster Hunters, the second best model in the crew last edition, got similarly spanked and now die to a stiff breeze.

5. This edition finally made obeys useful, and they took them off of Perdita.

6.  Perdita crew wasn't effective last edition.

Keep in mind the first impressions could be wrong, but these are my reasons why she lands so low for me.

Wouldn’t gunfighter let her still shoot off of finger on the trigger provided that they aren’t engaging you from beyond an inch?

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50 minutes ago, CrazzyTeddy said:

Wouldn’t gunfighter let her still shoot off of finger on the trigger provided that they aren’t engaging you from beyond an inch?

Thats what I was wondering too. It feels like it's supposed to, but when I dug through the rule book I'm afraid it might be right. Under Engaged it says what you can't do and one of those is 'take' a :ranged Action. Now does 'take' mean 'Declare' or does it mean something else? I'm guessing most people assume it's Declare. 

If somehow it weren't Declare, then it could work. During the Declare Action Step you Declare the action and at that time it is still a :ranged Action. It's not until Step 3 - Targeting, that you check for Range. There is where you could substitute the :ranged12 Range of the Action for a 1":melee. At least I think. The nitpicky timing stuff isn't my favorite to parse out. 

However, it seems moot if being Engaged means you can't even Declare the action in the first place. It sure 'feels' like it should work, but I'd hope it would have come up sometime in testing before this, so I'm guessing it's a no. It's still a great ability giving free Actions to your master to shoot stuff and giving off a huge Aura of Charge protection. It just doesn't protect her much...

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If you take an action you always go through the "Declare" step.

 

Family isn't bad but I think that they get shut down by a lot of crews very fast and for me they have a pretty fixed crew.

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4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Family isn't bad but I think that they get shut down by a lot of crews very fast and for me they have a pretty fixed crew.

What would be your fixed Crew? The Perdita box (without Francisco?) and Monter Hunters? Woul you use LLC upgrade and/or  Expert Marksman or No Prisoners?

 

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Santiago, Loco, Abuela, Nino, Steward, LLC on Dita, Judge/Frank (I haven't tested Frank yet but I'm slowly changing my mind about him)

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3 hours ago, CrazzyTeddy said:

Is there any way to ask Wyrd about it?

Wyrd will release a faq at some point. They decide what needs answering, but they certainly read these forums to look for ideas. 

This one is pretty obvious I think, you can't do :ranged whilst engaged. And the action lets her do a :ranged. Any ability that stops it counting as a :ranged will stop it being used with finger on the trigger.

 I'm away from my rule book but I think taking an action is the whole process.  It's not a uselessly action, but it doesn't help if they want to charge at Perdita. 

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2 hours ago, Adran said:

This one is pretty obvious I think, you can't do :ranged whilst engaged. And the action lets her do a :ranged. Any ability that stops it counting as a :ranged will stop it being used with finger on the trigger.

But then how does Gunfighter work then?

Gunfghter: This model may treat any of its :rangedActions as having a range of :ToS-Melee:1".

If you can't do a ranged attack when engaged, how can you get to the part that allows it to be used as a melee?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm expecting you to be right. But this does come across as one of those counterintuitive "here's how it technically works, not how you'd expect it to work because of this obscure interaction" rules that they were trying to eliminate in Third Edition.

So, I'm hoping it's ruled that you can do it against a model charging Perdita, just because it's how I think most people on first glance would expect it to work.

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Because gunfighter let's you treat it as an :ToS-Melee: action. So while it is a :ToS-Melee: action it isn't a :ranged action. ( it has to work like that as if it was a :ranged:ToS-Melee: action it can't do very much at all). 

Perdita has no rules to allow her to take :rangedactions while engaged. 

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I think the same way as @Adran! for finger on the trigger to works it needs to be a shooting action. If you are engage you can't do  :ranged but Perdita can decide to use a gun action as a :melee. So if you treat it like a :melee it's no more a :ranged and you can't use finger ability.

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

Because gunfighter let's you treat it as an :ToS-Melee: action. So while it is a :ToS-Melee: action it isn't a :ranged action. ( it has to work like that as if it was a :ranged:ToS-Melee: action it can't do very much at all). 

Perdita has no rules to allow her to take :rangedactions while engaged. 

But Gunfighter doesn't make it a melee action. Just that it treats the range as :ToS-Melee:. Which would make the ability useless if it didn't work the way it looks like it would. And that's kinda my point. The text for Gunfighter, and the text excluding using FotT when engaged (Engaged models cannot take :rangedActions), don't feel clean, and I can see new player's (or less legalistic players) being confused or frustrated. Especially given it's usually going to be used in a manner that exposes Perdita to bad play, with the expectation it'll work the way you'ld expect probably expect it to (moving Perdita into the open, and getting to shoot at someone charging her).

I get that's the likely ruling. I guess it just feels unintuitive, and the kind of thing I'd just hate arguing is not just the way it works, but the way it's intended to work.  I feel adding "unless this model is engaged" into the body of the text of Finger on the Trigger would have been a better way of doing it.

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38 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

I think the same way as @Adran! for finger on the trigger to works it needs to be a shooting action. If you are engage you can't do  :ranged but Perdita can decide to use a gun action as a :melee. So if you treat it like a :melee it's no more a :ranged and you can't use finger ability.

Why it's no more a :ranged? no " instead"

 

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8 minutes ago, Alansonchik said:

Why it's no more a :ranged? no " instead"

 

because gun symbol is in the range too, so if ability says range is now :melee1'' there's no gun symbol so it's no more a :ranged action ;) 

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More to the point, our little testing group made sure to use underwhelming master actions like that and report back that they were both working as they were written, and underwhelming. Finger on the Trigger was verified to be shut down by engaging Perdita (with incorporeal/flying models which ignored any screen between Perdita and the action, no less) and yet the action stayed unchanged.

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32 minutes ago, Alansonchik said:

I can use it as :melee1'' , but it's still  :ranged12"

Right,  but if you choose to use it as a :ranged, then you can't use the action at all because you cant use :ranged actions while engaged. Gunfighter lets the Action be either :ranged or :melee, not both at the same time. 

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27 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

More to the point, our little testing group made sure to use underwhelming master actions like that and report back that they were both working as they were written, and underwhelming. Finger on the Trigger was verified to be shut down by engaging Perdita (with incorporeal/flying models which ignored any screen between Perdita and the action, no less) and yet the action stayed unchanged.

It changed so much towards the end of the beta I wonder about whether they had time to work on that I've too.  Since family values changed too, it would have been a ton of changes all at once.   I've thought about blocking the way to perdita (which is easier now that you can't walk through engagement ranges), but the schemes don't really allow for static ranges.  

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