Dual Masters

[Ogid]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

I know what you said, but I don't know if I'm fielding a second master until I've made my crew. It might just be me, but a second master is just part of the crew, so I can't confirm I will use one until I effectively have my crew sorted. 

The point of that change is being a nerf to double master lists; so if you declare the use of it, then your adversary will know it and you will be stuck with that for the building of the crew; which will let him build a good crew to play into that.

However it's true that adding an extra step would be cumbersome; specially for tournaments so probably another way that doens't change these steps woud be better.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying it would be a good idea right now. Only a possible way to fix it if Double master becomes opressive..

[Mxbedlam]

I think its a hard decision. When the answer to a dual master is dual master, its just an arms race. Points adjustments might need to be made, all masters at 16 base cost or something, hard to say but as it stands if you wanna qualify for USTF this year gotta be prepped for that possible double master. Honestly, if you are playing vs Bayou or NVB 2 masters might not be a bad call just in case. 

[Jesy Blue]

55 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

When the answer to a dual master is dual master, its just an arms race.

Valid statement.

What will most likely happen is Gaining Grounds 2020 (The Barbara Walters Edition) will have the Schemes & Strategies changed to correct the levels.  It's better than having to reprint model information annually and it's a system already in place.

[Mxbedlam]

Just now, Jesy Blue said:

Valid statement.

What will most likely happen is Gaining Grounds 2020 (The Barbara Walters Edition) will have the Schemes & Strategies changed to correct the levels.  It's better than having to reprint model information annually and it's a system already in place.

I agree. More than likely we will see a no extra master hiring clause and it'd be nice if the schemes were less abusive with Obey models. That being said, I'm not sure I'd cry if they just fixed the rules to say Obey doesn't allow interacts, or A strategy marker can't be interacted with out of activation? I don't know seems like it might just create more rules questions than it answers and we STILL don't have an FAQ for m3e yet

[Jesy Blue]

The problem with no extra master hiring is how to word it for Viktoria because her shtick is hiring a second master.

[Mxbedlam]

yeah its tough to say, could be that if the Zoraida nonsense gets tucked in a bit the double masters won't feel so bad. It legit hasn't bothered me much until that combo

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Mrbedlam said:

When the answer to a dual master is dual master, its just an arms race.

Dual master isn't the answer for dual master. But dual master adds the possibility to face very impactful models which are hard to anticipate, that is the real problem; making a crew thinking you are facing X and then face Y. However those mind games can also be done without including masters so until it's clear if double masters is unbalanced, it's better to just observe the first positions of different tournaments instead of fixing something without knowing if it's broken. Malifaux is designed Faction vs Faction, so knowing popular second masters of the faction you are facing is also part of the game.

Also some factions uses more double masters than others, so that another thing to consider; how that change would affect the different factions; Banning dual masters for example will hit Guild hard.

If double master in general is a problem, then some changes could be made as for example: higher base cost, anounce it after the other player makes his crew, a full different profile with less actions, abilities and actions as second masters, just ban them... But if only a few masters are unbalanced as second masters, then these can get some of their abilities/triggers restricted when hired as second masters.

It's too early to know imo.

[TheJoyInGaming]

50 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

I agree. More than likely we will see a no extra master hiring clause and it'd be nice if the schemes were less abusive with Obey models. That being said, I'm not sure I'd cry if they just fixed the rules to say Obey doesn't allow interacts, or A strategy marker can't be interacted with out of activation? I don't know seems like it might just create more rules questions than it answers and we STILL don't have an FAQ for m3e yet

Deliver a Message currently has the wording "During its Activation" in its clause about interacting with the Enemy Leader or Master to gain the first VP. If this clause was more common in the GG Strats and Schemes would people mind?

To clarify, I am not suggesting that that clause should be added to every Strat and Scheme. Instead what I am suggesting is that should Zoraida prove to be that bad of a NPE that it should be baked into some. My personal preference, at first thought, would be to add that clause to every Strategy, but leave it off of the Schemes entirely. That way Zoraida, and other Obey models, can avoid the some of the more severe NPE experiences whilst retaining some of that scheming flexibility in their Obey toolbox.

[Mxbedlam]

We need more games. More results to fully determine if it is an issue, I'm just saying that for right now if Zoraida is a possible second master that you will be facing, bring 2 masters to stop her. That's one of the best ways to shut down some of her power. 

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

We need more games. More results to fully determine if it is an issue, I'm just saying that for right now if Zoraida is a possible second master that you will be facing, bring 2 masters to stop her. That's one of the best ways to shut down some of her power.

About Zoraida, she is really good in her crew thanks to her big range; without other swampfiends extending the range (eyes in the night), she has "only" 12'' range (at that point is a different flavour of having LadyJ ready to jump and mince anything that get close of that objetive).

However there are different ways to adapt, in idols where she is the strongest: You can bring nimble models that can walk, interact, walk; they won't be in range of the idol even if ensorcer trigger happens. Use disposable models with 3 Wds that will die moving the objetive, be agressive and take advantage she will be closer to the idol, use your master to move the idol or bring some model with anti-obey tech if your faction have (Like Crow Control from Guild). The worst thing you can do is leaving a non-master model in range of movement + Interact because she will go for obey stonning/cheating for ensorcer; if you don't have any tool to contest a idol near of her then just be agressive to force her to retreat or focus in other part of the board.

 

Nerfs for Zoraida: I'm not sure if she is too good or not as a second master; if she were too good, 2 good points that would reduce the problems as second master in these kind of strategies are: Eyes in the night (leader only) to reduce her obey range even if other swampfiend are hired or Ensorcer trigger (friendly models only as second master or even leader only) to avoid forcing an enemy model to walk+interact.