Dual Masters

[OracleToronto]

So I am not a big fan of Dual Master lists but I did realize that taking Zoraida in a Som'er Big Hat list might be super powerful. Som'er has tons of abilities that require you to ditch cards ... so it would be real nice to bring someone who can refill your hand back to 6 in the middle/ latter part of your turn.

Have other people already thought of this? And also are there any other options people are noticing for dual masters in Bayou?

 

[Scoffer]

My favourite dual combos are Ophelia+Mah and Ulix+Zoraida. 

Somer is a good secondary master himself - he can control a flank without any help and keep opponent busy, while the rest of my crew is doing something else. 

[OracleToronto]

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

My favourite dual combos are Ophelia+Mah and Ulix+Zoraida. 

Somer is a good secondary master himself - he can control a flank without any help and keep opponent busy, while the rest of my crew is doing something else. 

I don't think Som'er would ever consider himself "secondary" lol - but you make a great point. I actually really like Som'er as he has the ability to summon in such a flexible amount of keyword models to do his thing regardless of the rest of your list (he has a bit of a green-skinned Nicodem feel to him -though a bit more restrictive) 

 

[Rufess]

Dual (or Multiple) masters is based on 2 point: Crew Dependency and Resources Consumption.

If both masters have high dependency on their own crew, then you will struggle in crew building. Ulix has very high dependency for example, so you would always want to focus on his keywords. Zipp and Zoraida, on the other hand, can do their job without support from the crew. Other masters can do solo but better with their crew supporting.
(Mah is a special case here. She is an independent master but her leader ability is so great that she always want to be the leader likes a high dependency master)

And you would not want 2 resource-hungry masters to burn all of your hands in the first 2 activation. Combat master like Ophelia and Mah may burn hands real fast. Ulix and his friends also need high cards to grow pigs and moderate cards to summons. Zipp is annoying people by just existing there, and Zoraida can refill hands.

So, both Zipp and Zoraida are low crew dependency and low resources consumption. Which means that they are the best second master in our faction, and can make a good pair with basically every other masters.

[Scoffer]

On 8/14/2019 at 5:15 AM, Rufess said:

Dual (or Multiple) masters is based on 2 point: Crew Dependency and Resources Consumption.

 

On 8/14/2019 at 5:15 AM, Rufess said:

So, both Zipp and Zoraida are low crew dependency and low resources consumption. Which means that they are the best second master in our faction, and can make a good pair with basically every other masters.

I realy like your approach, but the most important thing for a secondary master is the reason to hire it. Does it bring something worth 16ss to your list? 

I don't think Zipp can do enough as a secondary master. It is not killy, it is not tanky, it can't do schemes/strats. It is annoying, but it can be easily ignored.

On the other hand Mah can greatly boost killing potential of any crew (the more models you have - the better), give some extra movement for slow models and then come and break some faces. 

[Rufess]

On 8/17/2019 at 5:56 AM, Scoffer said:

I don't think Zipp can do enough as a secondary master. It is not killy, it is not tanky, it can't do schemes/strats. It is annoying, but it can be easily ignored.

Cannot take interaction does not mean cannot do S&S. Zipp can do Take Prisoner, or place terrain for Search the Ruins. And more important, Zipp is for denying opponent from scoring. He can block the way to idols or bombs, displace enemy models from where they should be or waste opponent's resources for doing anything.

I do agree that you should have a good reason to hire Zipp as a second master, but once you have hired him, he should be able to contribute as good as other master.

On 8/17/2019 at 5:56 AM, Scoffer said:

On the other hand Mah can greatly boost killing potential of any crew (the more models you have - the better), give some extra movement for slow models and then come and break some faces. 

True. Pushing and Focus in a single action is so efficiently. Plus Mah does have some fantastic melee and range attack. But her leader ability is too good to pass over (and she has some good models within the keyword too) so I always struggle should I just hire her as my primary master.

[Caver Ramos]

On 8/16/2019 at 6:56 PM, Scoffer said:

 

I realy like your approach, but the most important thing for a secondary master is the reason to hire it. Does it bring something worth 16ss to your list? 

I don't think Zipp can do enough as a secondary master. It is not killy, it is not tanky, it can't do schemes/strats. It is annoying, but it can be easily ignored.

On the other hand Mah can greatly boost killing potential of any crew (the more models you have - the better), give some extra movement for slow models and then come and break some faces. 

I think Zipp can play a succesful 2nd master due to how independent he is, also Burns is a fantastic token that can help turn zipp into a scheming machine. But that combo is definitely expensive.

 

In the third floor wars they mentioned using ophelia as a secondary master for zipp, i'm honestly intrigued by this possibility, I guess you could showboat your entire hand before Opheli activates and then leave her with a decent hand to do the killing while the remaining of the crew schemes, but i just dont completely see it happening IMO

[Mxbedlam]

Ophelia doesn't need a big hand to do well. She is usually shooting at a stat 7 for her main gun and has flexibility in grabbing the upgrades she needs. On her own she can threaten a side of the board, especially if Zipp funnels them to her. 

 

Zipp is also a fun second master to bring with Mah who already has a good bit of movement and denial, he can run a flank, drop pianos and push people out of the way in order to force models towards bushwhackers and roosters. Plus, Zipp loves an elite crew so that he can have more pass markers to make pianos. (Also, Mah's leader ability can give him a few more to use)

[Caver Ramos]

Another master that i have found ,due to being repetedly pummeled by her, to be incredible as a second master is Zoraida, the hag is terrible thanks to her obeys and card drawing abilities. Also her totem is free. Overall zoraida as a second master is very interesting, but i dont know which bayou master would take the most advantage of her abilities

[Mxbedlam]

1 hour ago, Caver Ramos said:

Another master that i have found ,due to being repetedly pummeled by her, to be incredible as a second master is Zoraida, the hag is terrible thanks to her obeys and card drawing abilities. Also her totem is free. Overall zoraida as a second master is very interesting, but i dont know which bayou master would take the most advantage of her abilities

I think its more about which scheme pool she can play into and wreak havoc for your opponent. Opponents in my area tend to tech into 2 beater masters vs Zoraida in order to punish her Obey mechanic and deny targets. But if you declare Brewmaster, they might not add 2 masters. Letting you sub in Zoraida and take them down

 

[Mxbedlam]

SO after having played against Zoraida as a second master in NVB I can tell you that its not a fair fight. She has such a huge board presence and can almost lock a flank down on her own, forcing you to either divert around her or try to overwhelm her. Either way its a huge skew

[BornOnTheBayou]

Funny, I never had issues with her. I just fly Zipp into her face with 12 cups of coffee. She can't obey a master and she cant draw cards because of the upgrade. Zipp can pick her up and put her away.

[Mxbedlam]

6 hours ago, BornOnTheBayou said:

Funny, I never had issues with her. I just fly Zipp into her face with 12 cups of coffee. She can't obey a master and she cant draw cards because of the upgrade. Zipp can pick her up and put her away.

I was playing Brewie and opponent declared Dreamer. No way to know she's coming unless you just assume that she is

[OracleToronto]

On 10/3/2019 at 9:59 AM, Mrbedlam said:

I was playing Brewie and opponent declared Dreamer. No way to know she's coming unless you just assume that she is

see that might be the best "first step" at addressing the double master frustrations people are having (especially in competitive play) when you declare masters you should have to declare both "I'm playing a Dreamer and Zoraida team up. Ok i'm declaring Zipp"

 

[Jesy Blue]

The problem there is then you are disallowing the ability to hire other masters after the fact.

I have this hillarous Anti-Zorida list that comprises 5 masters (Vik's, Parker, Zipp, & Von Schill), that I only use when I declare Vik's as the opponent declares Zoraida; if you have to declare all my masters ahead of time, then I cannot know to use that crew, and I have now given my entire crew complement to my opponent before they have built their crew, giving them another advantage.

[Scoffer]

28 minutes ago, OracleToronto said:

see that might be the best "first step" at addressing the double master frustrations people are having (especially in competitive play) when you declare masters you should have to declare both "I'm playing a Dreamer and Zoraida team up. Ok i'm declaring Zipp"

 

I think we should go further and declare all masters, and all henchmen (some of them are very strong), and all enforcers (it's your fault, dear Riders), and minions after all. Then both players secretly choose upgrades, declare them and the encounter begins!

[Ogid]

5 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Then both players secretly choose upgrades, declare them and the encounter begins!

No way! Then a model is equiped with Lead-Lined Coat and just destroy the other team that didn't brought enough anti armor! Unfair! NPE!

5 hours ago, OracleToronto said:

see that might be the best "first step" at addressing the double master frustrations people are having (especially in competitive play) when you declare masters you should have to declare both "I'm playing a Dreamer and Zoraida team up. Ok i'm declaring Zipp"

Now seriously, some variation of this could be a good idea if double master becomes the meta. However it should be some kind of multi step because double masters could be decided after knowing who you are facing.

Something like:

• Declare leader: Both declare leader at the same time.
• Multiple master step: Both players declare the extra master(s) they are going to hire at the same time.
• Proceed to hire as normal except they must hire the declared masters.

[Scoffer]

7 hours ago, Ogid said:

Now seriously, some variation of this could be a good idea if double master becomes the meta. However it should be some kind of multi step because double masters could be decided after knowing who you are facing.

When double master becomes the meta, people just keep in mind, that their opponent can hire any model from his faction including additional masters. Masters are not special any more in this edition, they are tools for the job as any other model.  

[Adran]

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

Now seriously, some variation of this could be a good idea if double master becomes the meta. However it should be some kind of multi step because double masters could be decided after knowing who you are facing.

Declare leader. 

Build list

Mention if either of you have a second master. 

Rebuild list with that new information.

Does not sound like a good idea to me from the purpose of playing a game in a time limit. That might just be the way I build my lists. It also doesn't really answer the problem about the dreamer v brewmaster game, as you can't add master's in reaction to your opponent adding a master. 

[BornOnTheBayou]

Why not just raise the point costs of OP second masters?

[Jesy Blue]

We already did, that's why Lady Justice is 16.

[TheJoyInGaming]

6 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

We already did, that's why Lady Justice is 16.

The only fix is to cost Zoraida at 40!

[solkan]

If "Second Master Zoraida" is overpowered, what else on her card needs the "If this model is this crew's leader" treatment?

 

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, Adran said:

Declare leader. 

Build list

Mention if either of you have a second master. 

Rebuild list with that new information.

Does not sound like a good idea to me from the purpose of playing a game in a time limit. That might just be the way I build my lists. It also doesn't really answer the problem about the dreamer v brewmaster game, as you can't add master's in reaction to your opponent adding a master. 

That's not what I said:

• Declare leader
• Declare aditional masters (both at the same time, just once)
• Build list

And only as a possible fix if double master becomes too good. That information is a big dissadvantage for the double master if the other player know how to adapt.

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Ogid said:

That's not what I said:

• Declare leader
• Declare aditional masters (both at the same time, just once)
• Build list

 

I know what you said, but I don't know if I'm fielding a second master until I've made my crew. It might just be me, but a second master is just part of the crew, so I can't confirm I will use one until I effectively have my crew sorted.