defence trigger and focus

[looka]

Does a focus work on damage flip from a defence trigger? If it was used for defense ofc.

[Kadeton]

As someone who's recently taken an interest in Ironsides, that's a really interesting question.

For reference:

Quote

Focused +X: Before performing an opposed duel, this model may lower the value of this Condition by one to receive a  to the duel (and any resulting damage flip this model makes).

Df () Good Shot, My Turn: After resolving, this model gains an Adrenaline Token. If this Action is a  Action, the Attacking model suffers 2/3/5 damage, which can't be Cheated. 

I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, gaining the Focused bonus on both the Df duel and the Good Shot damage feels powerful to a degree that seems like it couldn't have been intended. On the other hand, it's difficult to see how, even in the most restrictive and finicky interpretation, it would be possible to think of that as anything other than a damage flip resulting from the opposed duel.

Basically, I can't see any sensible way to argue that it doesn't work. But I kind of feel like it shouldn't.

[solkan]

If you’re going to try applying Focused to damage flips in Resistance Triggers, you better also be applying the Accuracy Modifier.  Because that’s written in a way that it works for whichever side wins.

 

[Ogid]

12 hours ago, looka said:

Does a focus work on damage flip from a defence trigger? If it was used for defense ofc.

7 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Basically, I can't see any sensible way to argue that it doesn't work. But I kind of feel like it shouldn't.

I'd say it wouldn't apply... the focused give the  to that duel and any resulting damage flips, but the "After Resolving" trigger reads:

Quote

...These triggers happens after the action is complete, regardless of success or failure...

So the damage flip isn't a result of the opposed duel, but a totally different effect who happens after the action is complete for a trigger. That's also the reason the accuracy mods wouldn't apply here, it's not part of the same action.

 

 

[Kadeton]

16 hours ago, Ogid said:

So the damage flip isn't a result of the opposed duel, but a totally different effect who happens after the action is complete for a trigger. That's also the reason the accuracy mods wouldn't apply here, it's not part of the same action.

Yeah, that might be the loophole I was searching for. It feels extremely tenuous (the opposed duel provides the suit for the trigger, so saying that the trigger and its damage flip isn't "resulting" from the duel feels like a real stretch) but it provides a resolution outcome that seems more in line with expectations.

[Ogid]

17 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Yeah, that might be the loophole I was searching for. It feels extremely tenuous (the opposed duel provides the suit for the trigger, so saying that the trigger and its damage flip isn't "resulting" from the duel feels like a real stretch) but it provides a resolution outcome that seems more in line with expectations.

It depends on how the Focused state works... If it works in different actions generated from an action where the focus is used (for example, in a "Quick Reflexes" trigger), then it could be argued this also work in this case... I also feel this shouldn't work here, but it's not crystal clear.

[looka]

57 minutes ago, Ogid said:

It depends on how the Focused state works... If it works in different actions generated from an action where the focus is used (for example, in a "Quick Reflexes" trigger), then it could be argued this also work in this case... I also feel this shouldn't work here, but it's not crystal clear.

 Action Triggers are tied to specific Actions and can only  be used with that Action. They are found below an Action’s effect and are subject to all game effects that affect the Action (such as Incorporeal or + flips to damage).  (p.12 rb)

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

It depends on how the Focused state works... If it works in different actions generated from an action where the focus is used (for example, in a "Quick Reflexes" trigger), then it could be argued this also work in this case... I also feel this shouldn't work here, but it's not crystal clear.

No, focused does not work for actions generated by an action or trigger. Extended parentage isn't a thing in Malifaux.

[santaclaws01]

On 8/12/2019 at 10:07 PM, solkan said:

If you’re going to try applying Focused to damage flips in Resistance Triggers, you better also be applying the Accuracy Modifier.  Because that’s written in a way that it works for whichever side wins.

 

So what's the accuracy modifier for negative values?

[looka]

22 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

No, focused does not work for actions generated by an action or trigger. Extended parentage isn't a thing in Malifaux.

focus definitely works on an attack action trigger, the only question is does it work on defene triggers

[Ogid]

50 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

No, focused does not work for actions generated by an action or trigger. Extended parentage isn't a thing in Malifaux.

If focus doesn't work in extra actions generated by action triggers, then it shouldn't work for an extra effect that happens also outside of the original action for defensive triggers. That's rules coherency.

[santaclaws01]

3 minutes ago, Ogid said:

If focus doesn't work in extra actions generated by action triggers, then it shouldn't work for an extra effect that happens also outside of the original action for defensive triggers. That's rules coherency.

A defensive trigger is not an extra affect outside of the action. It happens in step 2f of the action. A comparable trigger would be Ricochet, which will also gain the benefit of focus.

[santaclaws01]

30 minutes ago, looka said:

focus definitely works on an attack action trigger, the only question is does it work on defene triggers

No, it does not. The generated action is entirely separate.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

So what's the accuracy modifier for negative values?

You can work out how much you won the duel by. It's only a negative number if it is an after failing trigger. 

Focus would work on offensive triggers that had a damage flip, and I can't see a reason it shouldn't work for a defensive trigger that had a damage flip. 

[Ogid]

43 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

A defensive trigger is not an extra affect outside of the action. It happens in step 2f of the action. A comparable trigger would be Ricochet, which will also gain the benefit of focus.

Wait, an effect that happens after the action is resolved also benefice from focused?? It sounds weird to me, but if it is officially confirmed that Ricochet works that way, then this case should also work like that.

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Wait, an effect that happens after the action is resolved also benefice from focused?? It sounds weird to me, but if it is officially confirmed that Ricochet works that way, then this case should also work like that.

After resolving triggers happen after resolving the effects of the action, not after the action as a whole is done being resolved.

[Ogid]

Just now, santaclaws01 said:

After resolving triggers happen after resolving the effects of the action, not after the action as a whole is done being resolved.

I have to disagree with that. The action is 100% done when these triggers happen, everything in the 2f phase happen after resolving, damaging and killing models. It's a totally different effect, triggered by the other action (a consequence of it), but it's not part of the same action.

That's the reason it's weird to me those effects benefice from focused (focused effect should end in the 2e phase imo, where the effects which are a direct consecuence of the duel happens).

But as said before, rules coherency. If it officially works for "Ricochet", it works for "Good shot, my turn".

[santaclaws01]

12 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I have to disagree with that. The action is 100% done when these triggers happen, everything in the 2f phase happen after resolving, damaging and killing models. It's a totally different effect, triggered by the other action (a consequence of it), but it's not part of the same action.

That's the reason it's weird to me those effects benefice from focused (focused effect should end in the 2e phase imo, where the effects which are a direct consecuence of the duel happens).

But as said before, rules coherency. If it officially works for "Ricochet", it works for "Good shot, my turn".

And they are step 6 of Resolving Actions(page 23). Abilities that say that happen after resolving an action resolve after all of that actions triggers have resolved, not at the same time as after resolving/succeeding triggers.

[Kadeton]

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

So what's the accuracy modifier for negative values?

There are no negative values. The accuracy modifier, as written, is determined by subtracting the losing model's total from the winning model's total.

IF we were to apply accuracy modifiers to Good Shot (still very much up for debate, it seems) then the accuracy modifier applied would be determined by that difference (winning vs losing), not by subtracting Ironsides' opponent's final result from her own. So if Ironsides successfully defended and beat her opponent by 1, Good Shot would be at a . If she got hit with an attack that beat her by 11, Good Shot would be at a .

(In a way, I actually really like that interpretation, because it adds a touch of character to the Good Shot mechanic. If Ironsides gets hit really hard, she hits back really hard. If she takes a light tap, she goes easy on the counter. And if the opponent's wild swing doesn't come anywhere near her, it's a smirkingly ironic "Good shot" as she lays them flat.)

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

And they are step 6 of Resolving Actions(page 23). Abilities that say that happen after resolving an action resolve after all of that actions triggers have resolved, not at the same time as after resolving/succeeding triggers.

Which are also described as "after resolving" effects, after the duel effect is settled, damage is done. The same step where the aditional actions (which doesn't benefice from Focused) also happen.

The wording of focused could have 2 meanings

On 8/13/2019 at 3:55 AM, Kadeton said:

Focused +X: Before performing an opposed duel, this model may lower the value of this Condition by one to receive a  to the duel (and any resulting damage flip this model makes).

1.  to the duel and resulting damage flips (from that duel only, so up to phase 2e/step5)
2.  tot he duel and resulting damage flips (including triggers that happen after the action is resolved, so up to phase 2f/step6)

The wording make me think only the damage flips that are a direct consequence of the duel are the ones getting the (1), but it can be also read as (2). However, it can be argued that if the 2f effects are included, then the damage flips the model make as a consequence of extra attack triggered in that phase are also thanks to the original duel, why not? Where should we stop if the effect that happens after the action but as a consequence also get the ?

Isn't there any user who is also a Malifaux game developer/staff who could be summoned (@userXXX) to settle this kind of doubts?

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Isn't there any user who is also a Malifaux game developer/staff who could be summoned (@userXXX) to settle this kind of doubts?

No

Wyrd don't make game rulings in the forums. They will make an FAQ document that may or may not answer this question. I don't know when the first FAQ is expected to be released, but the game hasn't been out for 2 months yet

Action Triggers are tied to specific Actions and can only be used with that Action. They are found below an Action’s effect and are subject to all game effects that affect the Action (such as Incorporeal or + flips to

damage). An example of an Action Trigger is listed below: (I've changed the example trigger)

Ricochet:Choose another model within 3" of the target. That model suffers 1/2/4 damage, which cannot be Cheated.

 In this case it is clear that the Ricochet trigger will gain the positive damage flip, because the initial action gained the positive damage flip.

But it is possible that this is a special rule for action triggers, and doesn't apply for resistance triggers

 

 

 

[santaclaws01]

28 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Which are also described as "after resolving" effects, after the duel effect is settled, damage is done. The same step where the aditional actions (which doesn't benefice from Focused) also happen.

They explicitly do not happen in the same step. Action effects are step 2e/step 5. After succeding/failing at step 2f/step 6. Now the action is reaolved and any after resolving effects like Butterfly Jump happen. Then once all of those are done any generated actions happen.

 

Just to make this clear to you, you're saying that after succeding/resolving triggers are not actually part of the action even though both the Action Triggers section explicitly says they are and that the page called Resolving Actions lists them as a step in resolving an action. What more evidence do you want that they are part of the action?

[Ogid]

11 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Just to make this clear to you, you're saying that after succeding/resolving triggers are not actually part of the action even though both the Action Triggers section explicitly says they are and that the page called Resolving Actions lists them as a step in resolving an action. What more evidence do you want that they are part of the action?

Well... they explicitly says those effects occur after the action is resolved, in fact in the same pg23 the very first part is this:

Quote

 

Resolving actions is an straightforward process. The model proceeds through the five steps bellow in order:

1. Declare the Action
2. Pay any Costs
3. Targeting
4. Perform Duels
5. Apply Results

 

The step 6 is excluded... so yes, i have dobuts about these being part of the same actions instead of an extra effect that happens as a consecuence of the action.

 

40 minutes ago, Adran said:

Action Triggers are tied to specific Actions and can only be used with that Action. They are found below an Action’s effect and are subject to all game effects that affect the Action (such as Incorporeal or + flips to

damage). An example of an Action Trigger is listed below: (I've changed the example trigger)

Ricochet:Choose another model within 3" of the target. That model suffers 1/2/4 damage, which cannot be Cheated.

 In this case it is clear that the Ricochet trigger will gain the positive damage flip, because the initial action gained the positive damage flip.

But it is possible that this is a special rule for action triggers, and doesn't apply for resistance triggers

That line could in fact enable the  flip to apply to Ricochet, even when it's not part of the same action. I can see your reading, but the wording of Focused is still a bit loose imo; it'd be great if it would be defined a bit better. However resistance triggers don't have such rule; so there isn't a rule that allow the  to apply there.

 

35 minutes ago, Adran said:

No

Wyrd don't make game rulings in the forums. They will make an FAQ document that may or may not answer this question. I don't know when the first FAQ is expected to be released, but the game hasn't been out for 2 months yet

Good to know, and is there any place to suggest them? or they watch the forums and decide which ones should be included?

[Flib Jib]

I love this! Not a vote for whichever way the ruling lands. I just think this is super fluffy.

13 hours ago, Kadeton said:

(In a way, I actually really like that interpretation, because it adds a touch of character to the Good Shot mechanic. If Ironsides gets hit really hard, she hits back really hard. If she takes a light tap, she goes easy on the counter. And if the opponent's wild swing doesn't come anywhere near her, it's a smirkingly ironic "Good shot" as she lays them flat.)