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Leaving engagement by breaking LoS

Question

In the 2nd edition it was able to leave models engagement without disengage strike by breaking LoS without leaving engagement range (e.g. Incorporeal model moves through the wall). Does this trick still work in the 3rd edition?

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Page 26

Every model has an engagement range based on the range of its longest :ToS-Melee:Action. If an enemy model is within a friendly model’s engagement range and the friendly model has Line of Sight to the enemy model, the friendly model is considered to be engaging the enemy model, and the enemy model is considered to be engaged by the friendly model.

 

Page 22

Walk

This model moves up to its Movement (Mv) in inches. This move cannot be used to leave an enemy model’s engagement range.

 

here are the rules you need

 

 

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7 minutes ago, gozer said:

@Maniacal_cackle

Based on the rules Adran referenced, let's use this hypothesis:

  • Euripides is engaged with Lady Justice (within 2" and line of sight).
  • Lady Justice's longest :ToS-Melee: is 2" and Euripides' Mv is 5".
  • There is a blocking Ht 6 wall nearby.
  • Euripides walks behind the wall in such a way that he never moves more than 2" away from Lady Justice.
  • Lady Justice loses line of sight to Euripides because he's completely behind the wall.
  • Even though Euripides is still 2" from Lady Justice, since Lady J no longer has line of sight the two models are no longer engaging.
  • If Euripides had more movement left after breaking LoS, he could then continue to walk away from Lady Justice and leave her 2" Engagement Range.

 

TL:DR - The "trick" still works. Not much has changed from 2e to 3e in regards to engagement range, engaging and line-of-sight as they relate to each other. If you can block line of sight to a model you're engaged with without leaving their engagement range while doing so, you can end engagement.

 

In this case, moving behind the wall would cause them to leave the model's engagement range, so no, they couldn't do that. Engagement isn't determined by distance alone, it's also determined by LoS, which this "trick" is dependent on. So you couldn't walk to leave LoS either. 

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8 hours ago, Adran said:

Page 26

Every model has an engagement range based on the range of its longest :ToS-Melee:Action. If an enemy model is within a friendly model’s engagement range and the friendly model has Line of Sight to the enemy model, the friendly model is considered to be engaging the enemy model, and the enemy model is considered to be engaged by the friendly model.

 

Page 22

Walk

This model moves up to its Movement (Mv) in inches. This move cannot be used to leave an enemy model’s engagement range.

 

here are the rules you need

So does this mean if there is an enemy on the other side of the a narrow corridor, you're not allowed to walk through the corridor because their engagement range extends without regard to LOS? Only engagement relies on LOS?

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@Maniacal_cackle

Based on the rules Adran referenced, let's use this hypothesis:

  • Euripides is engaged with Lady Justice (within 2" and line of sight).
  • Lady Justice's longest :ToS-Melee: is 2" and Euripides' Mv is 5".
  • There is a blocking Ht 6 wall nearby.
  • Euripides walks behind the wall in such a way that he never moves more than 2" away from Lady Justice.
  • Lady Justice loses line of sight to Euripides because he's completely behind the wall.
  • Even though Euripides is still 2" from Lady Justice, since Lady J no longer has line of sight the two models are no longer engaging.
  • HOWEVER, Euripides still can't walk further than 2" from Lady J because walk specifies engagement RANGE not engagement.

 

TL:DR - The rules for walking on page 22 are INSANE from a "rules as intended" perspective. One model could be on the inside of a "blocking" window-less brick house and another model could be outside. The two models could have no line of sight but if either of them are within the range of the other's :ToS-Melee: , they can't walk outside of that range? What in the actual fuck?

 

Edits: I thought it couldn't be like it is but it do.

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1 minute ago, gozer said:

@Maniacal_cackle

Based on the rules Adran referenced, let's use this hypothesis:

  • Euripides is engaged with Lady Justice (within 2" and line of sight).
  • Lady Justice's longest :ToS-Melee: is 2" and Euripides' Mv is 5".
  • There is a blocking Ht 6 wall nearby.
  • Euripides walks behind the wall in such a way that he never moves 2" away from Lady Justice.
  • Lady Justice loses line of sight to Euripides because he's behind the wall.
  • Even though Euripides is still 2" from Lady Justice, since Lady J no longer has line of sight the two models are no longer engaging.
  • If Euripides had more movement left after breaking LoS, he could then continue to walk away from Lady Justice and leave her 2" Engagement Range.

 

TL:DR - The "trick" still works. Not much has changed from 2e to 3e in regards to engagement range, engaging and line-of-sight as they relate to each other.

What part of

19 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This move cannot be used to leave an enemy model’s engagement range.

enables that scenario?

There's no specification that the rule in Walk only applies to engaged models, or only applies to an engaged enemy's engagement range.

 

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2 minutes ago, nomoredroids said:

In this case, moving behind the wall would cause them to leave the model's engagement range, so no, they couldn't do that. Engagement isn't determined by distance alone, it's also determined by LoS, which this "trick" is dependent on. So you couldn't walk to leave LoS either. 

Engaged uses LOS, but engagement range doesn't. Read the definitions provided by Adran again.

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4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Engaged uses LOS, but engagement range doesn't. Read the definitions provided by Adran again.

I did, and updated my post accordingly. I made a mistake because I didn't realize walk specifies leaving engagement RANGE, which is literally the most ridiculous thing I've read about M3E yet.

How can you be UN-ENGAGED with a model while simultaneously be UNABLE to walk away from them? It's insanity.

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3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Engaged uses LOS, but engagement range doesn't. Read the definitions provided by Adran again.

Seems pretty clear to me that trying to say that "engagement range" doesn't rely on LoS but "engagement" does is obtuse and needlessly pedantic. 

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I agree it is super wonky, and wouldn't object if my playgroup wanted to play it the more intuitive way.

However, I'd also be hard-pressed to argue if they wanted to play it by the book. Malifaux rules in general seem to be quite pedantic.

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6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree it is super wonky, and wouldn't object if my playgroup wanted to play it the more intuitive way.

However, I'd also be hard-pressed to argue if they wanted to play it by the book. Malifaux rules in general seem to be quite pedantic.

It 100% needs an errata.

The idea that a model can't walk outside of any enemy engagement range regardless of whether it's in line-of-sight (and thus engaged) is ridiculous.

If my model is on one side of a 1" iron wall (for kicks imagine wall is Ht 100 and 100" long) and yours is on the other and they both have a 2" engage range and neither have LoS to each other, neither of them can walk out of the other's engagement range.

That.

Is.

Crazy.

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7 minutes ago, gozer said:

It 100% needs an errata.

The idea that a model can't walk outside of any enemy engagement range regardless of whether it's in line-of-sight (and thus engaged) is ridiculous.

If my model is on one side of a 1" iron wall (for kicks imagine wall is Ht 100 and 100" long) and yours is on the other and they both have a 2" engage range and neither have LoS to each other, neither of them can walk out of the other's engagement range.

That.

Is.

Crazy.

That's why I asked the question to check if I was reading it right! Seems bonkers.

Edit: of course they can still move via disengaging, and I suppose the person probably couldnt take the attack due to lacking LOS.

So in practice, so may not always matter, but I believe disengage is a push, and that sometimes is important.

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18 minutes ago, gozer said:

It 100% needs an errata.

The idea that a model can't walk outside of any enemy engagement range regardless of whether it's in line-of-sight (and thus engaged) is ridiculous.

If my model is on one side of a 1" brick wall and yours is on the other and they both have a 2" engage range and neither have LoS to each other, neither of them can walk out of the other's engagement range.

That.

Is.

Crazy.

you could charge away from the wall since you aren't engaged... it's still an incredibly dumb situation though.

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6 minutes ago, Nutella said:

you could charge away from the wall since you aren't engaged... it's still an incredibly dumb situation though.

Indeed! It would be SO easy to errata though:

Walk

This model moves up to its Movement (Mv) in inches. This move cannot be used to leave an enemy model’s engagement range if the enemy model is engaged with this model.

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1 hour ago, gozer said:

It 100% needs an errata.

The idea that a model can't walk outside of any enemy engagement range regardless of whether it's in line-of-sight (and thus engaged) is ridiculous.

If my model is on one side of a 1" iron wall (for kicks imagine wall is Ht 100 and 100" long) and yours is on the other and they both have a 2" engage range and neither have LoS to each other, neither of them can walk out of the other's engagement range.

That.

Is.

Crazy.

Is it crazier than the last edition where you could walk around a corner whilst engaged as long as you stayed in the range you didn't need to stay in los?

I'll agree that it has an unintuitive outcome in one specific case, but the rule is simple and most of the time obvious. 

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On a related note, can you not walk through engagement ranges anymore? I believe this was true in the Beta but now I cannot find anything in the rulebook about unengaged models walking into and out of engagement legally and without penalty. 

 

Anyone care to help me out with references?

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36 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

On a related note, can you not walk through engagement ranges anymore? I believe this was true in the Beta but now I cannot find anything in the rulebook about unengaged models walking into and out of engagement legally and without penalty. 

 

Anyone care to help me out with references?

The text of the walk action hasn't changed at all throughout the entirety of the beta to release.

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16 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The text of the walk action hasn't changed at all throughout the entirety of the beta to release.

So to be clear, unengaged models CANNOT walk into and then out of engagement with a single walk action. (baring abilities like Agile)  But you could Charge through engagement correct?

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5 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

So to be clear, unengaged models CANNOT walk into and then out of engagement with a single walk action. (baring abilities like Agile)  But you could Charge through engagement correct?

Yup, since Walk specifically can't be used to leave an enemy models engagement range.

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10 hours ago, gozer said:

@Maniacal_cackle

Based on the rules Adran referenced, let's use this hypothesis:

  • Euripides is engaged with Lady Justice (within 2" and line of sight).
  • Lady Justice's longest :ToS-Melee: is 2" and Euripides' Mv is 5".
  • There is a blocking Ht 6 wall nearby.
  • Euripides walks behind the wall in such a way that he never moves more than 2" away from Lady Justice.
  • Lady Justice loses line of sight to Euripides because he's completely behind the wall.
  • Even though Euripides is still 2" from Lady Justice, since Lady J no longer has line of sight the two models are no longer engaging.
  • HOWEVER, Euripides still can't walk further than 2" from Lady J because walk specifies engagement RANGE not engagement.

 

TL:DR - The rules for walking on page 22 are INSANE from a "rules as intended" perspective. One model could be on the inside of a "blocking" window-less brick house and another model could be outside. The two models could have no line of sight but if either of them are within the range of the other's :ToS-Melee: , they can't walk outside of that range? What in the actual fuck?

 

Edits: I thought it couldn't be like it is but it do.

I may be wrong, but it doesn't seems like that to me.

In your exemple, Euripides want to go around the corner to "walk out" of the engagement, but he couldn't.

  1. The rules state that you can't use the walk action to leave an engagement, but you can still use the disengage action.
  2. Lady Justice longest :meleeof 2" can't target an enemy the other side of the wall (go see rules about Line of Sight, Height and maybe Measuring CR p.49/53-54).
  3. Lady Justice attack could only go up to 2" + Lady Justice size as " upward on the wall (it can't go over it)
  4. AND if none of them have Line of Sight  none of them is considered engaged (See Engagement CR p.62)

I'll post the most important of engament of p.62 of the Core Rulebook to help people here:

Every model has an engagement range based on the range of its longest :ToS-Melee: Action. If an enemy model within a friendly model HAS Line of Sight to the enemy model, the friendly model is considered to be engaging the enemy model, and the enemy model is considered to be engaged by the friendly model.

If the friendly model has a longer engagement range than the enemy model, this could lead to situations where the friendly model is engaging the enemy model, but the enemy model is not engaging the friendly model (because the friendly model is within its engagement range).

Models that do not have :ToS-Melee: Actions do not have engagement ranges.

Plus here are the 5 primary effects of engagement:

  • Cannot take :ToS-Range: actions
  • Cannot take Interact actions
  • Cannot use Walk action to leave engagement range of the opponent
  • Cannot use Charge action
  • Targeting engaged or engaging models with :ToS-Range: actions incurs Friendly Fire

Here you have it (CR means Core Rulebook just to be clear). I could simplify all of this, but not today, I'm too tired.

 

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8 hours ago, GlowingFruit said:
  • The rules state that you can't use the walk action to leave an engagement, but you can still use the disengage action.
  •  

The problem is that that is NOT what the rules say. The rules say you cannot leave a model's 'engagement range'. If it just said you could not leave engagement with an enemy model, this question would have never come up at all. It could potentially lead to some weird things: Sybelle standing next to a Ht3 wall with another model on the other side. Sybelle has a 2" Engagement Range. She is not 'engaged' with the model on the other side of the wall, but according to the rules about Walk, the other model could not walk and leave her Engagement Range. It doesn't matter that they aren't engaged. 

I think the intent was for it not to allow a model to leave 'engagement', but that's not technically what is written. Hopefully it will be cleared up in the first FAQ.

EDIT: You posted the actually relevant rule, but paraphrased, so I overlooked it.  P 62 explicitly states:

"Engaged models cannot leave leave an enemy model's engagement range with a Walk Action."

That does seem to imply that that was the intent - that a model has to be Engaged to not be able to Walk.

The Walk rule could use an errata as it is confusing and specifically says something very different. They should simply remove the line in the Walk Action description and replace it with the highlighted part from above. 

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8 hours ago, GlowingFruit said:
  1. The rules state that you can't use the walk action to leave an engagement, but you can still use the disengage action.
  2. Lady Justice longest :meleeof 2" can't target an enemy the other side of the wall (go see rules about Line of Sight, Height and maybe Measuring CR p.49/53-54).
  3. Lady Justice attack could only go up to 2" + Lady Justice size as " upward on the wall (it can't go over it)
  4. AND if none of them have Line of Sight  none of them is considered engaged (See Engagement CR p.62)

I'll post the most important of engament of p.62 of the Core Rulebook to help people here:

I am not sure where you are getting your page numbers? In the English version of the rule book, the section on "Engagement" is Pg. 26

 

Also, regarding your point #3. LJ's engagement range is 2" and only 2" to be clear.  Point #3 could be misinterpreted as '2 inches plus her size" as if you were measuring in the 3rd dimension. Just to reinforce a couple rules. Measurement is always made from a top-down perspective. Any intervening model or terrain interferes with LOS in an abstract pass/fail way. If the object between the two models is of height or size lower than either of the two, than it is ignored otherwise it is not and blocks line of sight.

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1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

EDIT: You posted the actually relevant rule, but paraphrased, so I overlooked it.  P 62 explicitly states:

"Engaged models cannot leave leave an enemy model's engagement range with a Walk Action."

That does seem to imply that that was the intent - that a model has to be Engaged to not be able to Walk.

The Walk rule could use an errata as it is confusing and specifically says something very different. They should simply remove the line in the Walk Action description and replace it with the highlighted part from above. 

It's page 26 but yes, this rule provides evidence that the "rules as intended" is for models to be engaged in order to be unable to walk out of a model's engagement range.

Until an FAQ or errata, this is a great reference rule if the circumstance arises at the table.

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11 minutes ago, gozer said:

It's page 26 but yes, this rule provides evidence that the "rules as intended" is for models to be engaged in order to be unable to walk out of a model's engagement range.

Until an FAQ or errata, this is a great reference rule if the circumstance arises at the table.

I think the bit in the rules that state that you can't use the walk action to leave an enemy model's engagement range is a better reference to use. 

As far as I can tell, it is impossible to be engaged and not in an enemy model's engagement range so the bit you quoted is accurate and not in conflict with models being unable to leave engagement range with a walk action. 

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4 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I think the bit in the rules that state that you can't use the walk action to leave an enemy model's engagement range is a better reference to use. 

As far as I can tell, it is impossible to be engaged and not in an enemy model's engagement range so the bit you quoted is accurate and not in conflict with models being unable to leave engagement range with a walk action. 

The problem is that RAW says it's possible to be UN-ENGAGED and ALSO be unable to walk out of a model's engagement range.

What I quoted implies the RAI were for only ENGAGED models to be unable to walk out of an enemy model's engagement range.

Until more information is included in a FAQ or errata, I'm going with with the RAI, because the RAW is so ridiculous with regard to the elementary concepts of line-of-sight.

For example, how would a disengage work in the case when a friendly model is leaving an enemy model's engagement range but isn't engaged due to line-of-sight? Does the enemy model get to make a melee attack? How? They have no LoS. And if the enemy model can't make a melee attack then does the disengage go un-contested and the friendly model gets their free push?

Maybe the devs intended this, knowing the engagement range of un-engaged models could effectively be ignored by a 100% success disengage? Seems unlikely, but possible?

 

Edit: Nope disengage doesn't work either - a model can't even disengage in the above example because it isn't engaged. 

Quote

Disengage Can only be declared while engaged.

So this literally means that charging is the only way a friendly model that is in an enemy model's engagement range -  but not engaged with them - can move away! Silly!

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Well Cyclops are WAY better than I thought. They can position themselves 2" away from an enemy model, (within their engagement RANGE,)  and create 2 ice pillars between the models so that LoS is blocked. Now the enemy model is perma-paralyzed 

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