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Ogid

Consume (Teddy)

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Consume ability says "...This model heals an ammount equal to target's Health, then kill the target..."

Does this mean Teddy heals taking in count the total health instead of the current health?

Ty in advance!

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9 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Consume ability says "...This model heals an ammount equal to target's Health, then kill the target..."

Does this mean Teddy heals taking in count the total health instead of the current health?

Ty in advance!

See Damage Timing:

Quote

4.  The model lowers its Health by an amount equal to the final damage amount.

and similarly at step 6:

Quote

6.  If a model is at 0 Health, it is killed, then resolve the following effects:

"current Health" is redundant for the most part.

You're welcome to complain about the wording of the card explanation, but the processes of healing and suffering damage change the value of the Health stat.

Likewise, in Healing:

Quote

When a model Heals, it gains an amount of Health equal to the healing effect. A model’s Health cannot exceed its maximum Health; if a Heal effect would cause it to exceed this limit, any additional Healing is ignored (as though it did not occur).

and things like the Costs rules:

Quote

If a Trigger’s cost requires the per- forming model to suffer damage, that cost cannot be paid if doing so would reduce its Health to 0 or below

 

The model's Health stat goes down as it suffers damage and up as it heals, and starts at the value specified on the card.  (For an interesting time, compare the number of times the rules PDF says "current Health" (2), "maximum Health" (4), and "Health" (14).)

 

In other words, "This model heals an amount equal to the target's Health" is referring to the model's current Health, not its maximum Health.  Because if it was referring to "maximum Health" it would have to say so.

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ty @solkan for the answer, but this doesn't seem to be that case (there is no damage dealt)

I'll elaborate: This ability doesn't deal damage and then heal based in that damage; it heals using an stat (target's Health) and then kill the model. I asked because other abilities does specify current Health when it's relevant for the ability (Coryphee duet's Dance Apart for example) or specify the damage dealt is what is healing you (like Stiched Together's Drink Blood trigger), but in this case it says "target Health" instead of "target current Health".

 

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1 hour ago, Ogid said:

ty @solkan for the answer, but this doesn't seem to be that case (there is no damage dealt)

I'll elaborate: This ability doesn't deal damage and then heal based in that damage; it heals using an stat (target's Health) and then kill the model. I asked because other abilities does specify current Health when it's relevant for the ability (Coryphee duet's Dance Apart for example) or specify the damage dealt is what is healing you (like Stiched Together's Drink Blood trigger), but in this case it says "target Health" instead of "target current Health".

You seem to have missed my point entirely.  And you missed the point of the rule in Costs, in the Triggers rules:

Quote

If a Trigger’s cost requires the per- forming model to suffer damage, that cost cannot be paid if doing so would reduce its Health to 0 or below.

What do you think it's referring to when it says Health for that rule?

The stat "Health" is only ever used to refer to the current value.

Concerning cards using "current Health", exactly two models use the phrase "current Health" on their cards:  The Coryphee Duet and Leveticus.  At best it's the same situation as the instance #2 of "current Health" in the PDF--redundant emphasis and/or clarity.

By amazing coincidence, literally dozens of cards contain the words "maximum Health" because its relevant to things like Grit (Resourceful):

Quote

While tis model has half of its maximum Health or less, ...

When a rule means "maximum Health" it will so say.

If a model with a maximum Health of 6 and a current Health of 4 is consumed by Teddy, Teddy heals 4.  Because the model's Health is 4 at the time.

 

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I can buy the wording explanation but not the damage one; there is no damage done in this ability. This ability just Heal the bear based in the target "Health" (whatever it means), then kill the target. In killed (pg 25) says some effects (like this one) kill the target without the need to reduce it first to 0 hp. And that is what is causing my doubt, if the heal where based in the damage the other model get, then it would be clear.

But if in this game Health is usually used as "current health" then it's probably as you say... I'd play it like that.

Is there any way to get official confirmations about these kind of rules issues?

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1 hour ago, Ogid said:

I can buy the wording explanation but not the damage one; there is no damage done in this ability. This ability just Heal the bear based in the target "Health" (whatever it means), then kill the target. In killed (pg 25) says some effects (like this one) kill the target without the need to reduce it first to 0 hp. And that is what is causing my doubt, if the heal where based in the damage the other model get, then it would be clear.

But if in this game Health is usually used as "current health" then it's probably as you say... I'd play it like that.

Is there any way to get official confirmations about these kind of rules issues?

Solkan was using the bits from rules for damage to show all the various times Health is used, and it is always used to mean the current amount of health a model has and not a models maximum Health. Maximum Health doesn't get reduced when a model takes damage, but their Health does. This helps set the precedent that Health is used to implicitly mean current Health.

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Far from being an expert, but maybe I can help you understand.

Teddy's consume action doesn't deal any damage since it instantly kill the target without triggering any demise effects (demise is a trigger usualy done when certain models dies and have different effects). This part is similar to the execute trigger that some models have on certain attack actions (Bayou Gator for exemple).

Returning now to Teddy's consume heal effect. The health Teddy seems to gain looks to be equal to the current health of the target since it does not specify target's max health. I know Teddy has a great pool of self-healing abilities (Regen +1, heal on Heavy Claws trigger:crow, I've got your back trigger :ram and Consume). The rules like Solkan state says that a model have a maximum health stat and a health stat. The simple health stat is use for the current health. It is like health/maximum health like in video games. A basic exemple would be something like rpg where you have your health bar with two number. Your health on one side and your maximum health on the other.

I hope my explanation were not too confusing.

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6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Solkan was using the bits from rules for damage to show all the various times Health is used, and it is always used to mean the current amount of health a model has and not a models maximum Health. Maximum Health doesn't get reduced when a model takes damage, but their Health does. This helps set the precedent that Health is used to implicitly mean current Health.

Rereading his posts I see what he did there. I totally though he was talking about the mechanic of consume, not the wording.

I think this ability would be better with a "current" health in the wording tho. Context is important, talking about Health in the context of dealing/receiving damage is clear, but when we are talking abilities where there is no damage the meaning could blurr a bit.

But all thing considered I also think taking Health as current health is the right meaning here. Also this ability as "maximum health" could be a bit OP, so it's not likely.

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