Will one of you go and do well at a tourney with guild?

[That Tome]

I dont like her into guild at all, jury is just a nightmare. Exorcists against summons are another reason I would also shy away from using Tara or any summon master really.

[Ogid]

A note for the ones disapointed with the result of the faction in the UK nationals. It seems to vary from meta to meta. The Rusian meta is using different rules than english one (double master allowed and DHM as single master) and there GUI is doing much better (it's a smaller meta tho). You can see a quick estimation here.

There is still hope

[Scoffer]

We need @Legislat in this discussion.

[4thstringer]

20 minutes ago, Ogid said:

A note for the ones disapointed with the result of the faction in the UK nationals. It seems to vary from meta to meta. The Rusian meta is using different rules than english one (double master allowed and DHM as single master) and there GUI is doing much better (it's a smaller meta tho). You can see a quick estimation here.

There is still hope

I've been saying for a while guild would be a lot better off with rules as written, but I'm always told it I am wrong, and it would be worse for us, because of second masters like Kirai and Zoraida.  I've given up on the front.

[Ogid]

1 minute ago, 4thstringer said:

I've been saying for a while guild would be a lot better off with rules as written, but I'm always told it I am wrong, and it would be worse for us, because of second masters like Kirai and Zoraida.  I've given up on the front.

That's why data is useful . In general any point is much harder to brush off with data backing it up.

It's not infallible because we can't assume all players from all factions have the same skill level in every event and in every area (plus I only have the results from 2 regions and the game is still young). But after enough time, comparing metas using double master and without using them should give us at least an idea of which are the factions more beneficed from it.

[PirateCaptain]

51 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I've been saying for a while guild would be a lot better off with rules as written, but I'm always told it I am wrong, and it would be worse for us, because of second masters like Kirai and Zoraida.  I've given up on the front.

I agree with you, and I think the "second master" thing is actually less of an issue for guild since so many of those problems we have answers to.  E.g. Exorcists into Kirai and (edit cause i'm dumb) idk other stuff 😜.  Guild just seems so much more impacted by two masters than other factions.

[eddy]

LLC does literaly nothing against zoraida

 

[PirateCaptain]

2 minutes ago, eddy said:

LLC does literaly nothing against zoraida

 

derp duh, i'm dumb

[Legislat]

Ok, here are a few of my thoughts.

1) Double Masters are a lot more fun. Actually it is a lot harder to adapt to a bad matchup with a single master option. Though I don't think it affects our viability as much as some of us think. We can still play.

2) keywords are a big fat traps. You pick what you need. Period. The only master I play almost exclusively in keyword is Hoffman. Almost everything else I play varies heavily from just the totem to full list from game to game. My most successful Lucius, Nellie, Sonnia and Dashel lists are totem + 0-1 in keyword models. 

3) Every master is viable in guild. M3E shines brightly on faction play in this regard. There are still some hard counters but they are nowhere near as brutal as they where in M2E.

4) not every keyword is viable. Family is trash, sorry. This crew is too prone to be tabled turn 2-3. Glass canons don't work reliably in our meta. 

5) The crews in UK and in our meta are sometimes very different. And Jury does not magically beat Dreamer in our meta (or anybody). In fact Dreamer does not really care - he just summons stitched and they are not really bothered by 1+1 damage. We have a couple really good NVB players, so you can't beat them with just strong models. You need to actually think (bummer).

6) Let's see how the guild will show itself next year. I don't think there were enough of strong players present in UK Nationals and I plan to attend next year for some fresh experience. I think there will definitely something I can bring to surprise my opponents

 

Edit:

7) Pale Rider will be nerfed. Mark my words. He is too good. 

[Cronex13]

12 minutes ago, Legislat said:

Ok, here are a few of my thoughts.

1) Double Masters are a lot more fun. Actually it is a lot harder to adapt to a bad matchup with a single master option. Though I don't think it affects our viability as much as some of us think. We can still play.

2) keywords are a big fat traps. You pick what you need. Period. The only master I play almost exclusively in keyword is Hoffman. Almost everything else I play varies heavily from just the totem to full list from game to game. My most successful Lucius, Nellie, Sonnia and Dashel lists are totem + 0-1 in keyword models. 

3) Every master is viable in guild. M3E shines brightly on faction play in this regard. There are still some hard counters but they are nowhere near as brutal as they where in M2E.

4) not every keyword is viable. Family is trash, sorry. This crew is too prone to be tabled turn 2-3. Glass canons don't work reliably in our meta. 

5) The crews in UK and in our meta are sometimes very different. And Jury does not magically beat Dreamer in our meta (or anybody). In fact Dreamer does not really care - he just summons stitched and they are not really bothered by 1+1 damage. We have a couple really good NVB players, so you can't beat them with just strong models. You need to actually think (bummer).

6) Let's see how the guild will show itself next year. I don't think there were enough of strong players present in UK Nationals and I plan to attend next year for some fresh experience. I think there will definitely something I can bring to surprise my opponents

 

Edit:

7) Pale Rider will be nerfed. Mark my words. He is too good. 

Interested in Lucius list with little to no keyword

[eddy]

16 minutes ago, Legislat said:

7) Pale Rider will be nerfed. Mark my words. He is too good. 

You probably are right. So far he is best guild model. I think only one that can be called OP

[Legislat]

1 hour ago, Cronex13 said:

Interested in Lucius list with little to no keyword

here is the example

7ss

Lucius Mattheson

The Scribe

Dashel Barker (16)

Pathfinder (7)

Guild Lawyer (6)

Pale Rider (11)

The Dispatcher (Dashel Barker Totem) (3)

[Dark Reaper]

1 hour ago, Legislat said:

2) keywords are a big fat traps. You pick what you need. Period. The only master I play almost exclusively in keyword is Hoffman. Almost everything else I play varies heavily from just the totem to full list from game to game. My most successful Lucius, Nellie, Sonnia and Dashel lists are totem + 0-1 in keyword models. 

Couldn't agree more. I have to admit I have played Lucius mostly in keyword and Dashel not really at all, but  my Nellie and Sonnia lists have almost no models in keyword. You take what you need to deal with what is put on the other side of the table, as well as the strategy and schemes of course. Noone should be concerned about paying 1SS extra for a Pathfinder who can push people around, summon traps and ignore terrain regardless of keyword. At least in Guild, the synergies between models OOK might be greater than the ones actually present within a given keyword.

[Cronex13]

VERY interesting. So Dashel AND Pathfinder are summoning (theoretically.)

I'm intrigued about the rest of your list though. Pale Rider is for obvious reasons. No mimic to copy it though. Can be obeyed via lawyer.

Truth be told, it seems like Pathfinder is solely good for his bonus actions? His rifle being stat 5 is a bit of a turn off for me. I haven't used him much though so I definitely wanna hear about better experiences with him.

I guess the dispatcher makes sense for provide enemy scheme markers for Dashel.

The Lawyer is the lawyer, self explanatory. 

Has this list done well for you before?

[DuBlanck]

11 hours ago, Cronex13 said:

Pathfinder... rifle being stat 5 is a bit of a turn off for me.

I see this kind of sentiment regularly - if his primary job is positional and utility, being at stat parity (or one below) isn't that likely to affect his usefulness enormously, particularly if you are applying hand pressure elsewhere.

I assumet eh numbers have been crunched elsewhere - percentage-wise, how much more likely is 5v5/5v6/6v5 winning a flip?

[le_wahou]

24 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

I see this kind of sentiment regularly - if his primary job is positional and utility, being at stat parity (or one below) isn't that likely to affect his usefulness enormously, particularly if you are applying hand pressure elsewhere.

I assumet eh numbers have been crunched elsewhere - percentage-wise, how much more likely is 5v5/5v6/6v5 winning a flip?

The %age fo fail/win without cheating is not the relevant number. It gives an estimation of the average damage a model will deal in a game on action that are not important enoguh to be cheated.
The important point in my opinion is what card difference will you need to cheat on a VP scoring action, and what is the odds to have to cheat first. On this point of view, a stat 5 model will very likely fail this important action against a def 6 model.
It does not mean that a stat 5 model is useless, but it means that if you need to succeed on an action of the pathfinder, you will have to empty your opponent's hand first. Otherwise, you are likely to fail.

[Ogid]

The pathfinder ranged attack isn't that bad. Stat 5 isn't impressive, but it has good range, good severe/moderate damage, ignores concealment and has 2 nice triggers. The pathfinder will be hired for his traps, but that ranged attack is a nice extra; and may be a legit target to copy with a Doppleganger/Agent 47 (not the best, but useable). Traps are annoying and an extra source of Pass tokens for the other player; which are cards or activation control for Lucius.

I'm also interested in hearing how that list performs tho.

[Cronex13]

The list lacks both Doppleganger and Agent 46, which is why I was somewhat taken aback. It means this guy is being used to probably go sit on an objective, summon traps to protect himself and take the occasional shot at something if possible (I think.)

[4thstringer]

20 hours ago, Legislat said:

 

Edit:

7) Pale Rider will be nerfed. Mark my words. He is too good. 

God I hope not.  The Rider is about the only thing keeping my games close tbh.

[4thstringer]

18 hours ago, Legislat said:

here is the example

7ss

Lucius Mattheson

The Scribe

Dashel Barker (16)

Pathfinder (7)

Guild Lawyer (6)

Pale Rider (11)

The Dispatcher (Dashel Barker Totem) (3)

Why bring lucius to lead that list instead of say... Basse?.  Only thing I see you are losing is the condition removal from the scribe, and I think basse is going to do more for you than Lucius with the rest of that list.

[Starrius]

9 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

God I hope not.  The Rider is about the only thing keeping my games close tbh.

I really think the token generation on the riders will change I'm using it so it loses the tokens at end of turn now so that when it changes I'm use to it

[Legislat]

Entourage is huge. So is issue command on MG or executioner. So is arcane reservoir. And scribe is number one totem in guild (probably tied with purifying flame). Nah, Lucius over Basse any day. 

[Starrius]

18 hours ago, Legislat said:

here is the example

7ss

Lucius Mattheson

The Scribe

Dashel Barker (16)

Pathfinder (7)

Guild Lawyer (6)

Pale Rider (11)

The Dispatcher (Dashel Barker Totem) (3)

That's a weird list my lucius is normally close to

 

Lucius

Scribe

Agent 46 (9) +LLC (2)

Guild lawyer (6)

Guild lawyer (6)

Investigator (7)

Investigator (7)

Field report (6+1)

Cashe 6

[Dark Reaper]

19 hours ago, Legislat said:

here is the example

7ss

Lucius Mattheson

The Scribe

Dashel Barker (16)

Pathfinder (7)

Guild Lawyer (6)

Pale Rider (11)

The Dispatcher (Dashel Barker Totem) (3)

I have to admit I haven't tried anything like this, or even really thought too much about a list like this, but it looks potentially massive! Lucius has so many options here, with Hidden Sniper from the Lawyer, entourage, command into obey and commanding summoned minions. Even with little keyword support, Lucius should still have some decent card draw with arcane reservoir and pass token manipulation. 

The one thing I am wondering about: why no LLC on the PR? Are you keeping him out of harm's way for most of the game?

[Ogid]

I see no love for Changelings... I thought at least 1 were an staple in his lists; those creepy things are amazing for 4SS.

Lucius plus a summoner has to be a nice double master. Lucius has all the draw in the world to get the good cards for summoning, and summons are minions; which can be commanded by Lucius himself.