Maniacal_cackle Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 18 minutes ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: That said, I'll be playing Molly soon, so I'm in for an uphill battle keeping pillars on the board, but corpses should be plentiful! Healing will be needed, and I need to find a way to make pillars that Molly won't rip down right away and give her cards. Molly cap rip through pillars both by using her card draw ability, or sending crooligans to tear them down since they're destructible. As a Molly player, I'd suggest bringing some strength to the table that isn't reliant on pillars. The other thing is she can only do it at 8" (13" with a move), so if you can make use of pillars far outside her range, that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said: Molly cap rip through pillars both by using her card draw ability, or sending crooligans to tear them down since they're destructible. As a Molly player, I'd suggest bringing some strength to the table that isn't reliant on pillars. The other thing is she can only do it at 8" (13" with a move), so if you can make use of pillars far outside her range, that helps. Yup. Ultimately, I think if I can get her to move and drop a pillar then I'm winning out. I'll give her two cards and lose a pillar for 2 actions from the master. Crooligans will be annoying too, but hopefully more content trying to scheme than attacking pillars. I do wish Gigants has some way to generate a pillar though. I've played more spread in my games than what pillars would seem to ask for, so my gigants get whittled down from oldways instead of taking blows, but without a frozen pillar to gain vigor from, they get awfully dead by turn 5. That said, against Perdita's crew I had one hold up the Brutal emissary for 3 rounds just because of old ways and hand cards. I'll take a guaranteed 11 over a positive flip any day (reference to having an 11 ontop of discard vs Brutal's greatsword) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: I've not found that corpses have been the best for ice pillars. 2" is really short range for the bonus action. Ok, you can run a BBS and lyssa together, but that seems awfully expensive grouping just to get a pillar up. Instead, just hire a cyclops. I also feel that pillars are of mixed gains. I've played two games with Euripides now, the second was against Perdita and had a rather annoying Papa Loco who kept blowing them up. Even with him taking two out on average per turn, I was getting several up from killing a model with Euripides (or in 8" of him) or by summoning them with his actions. I didn't have any corpse generators, so most corpse pillars or corpse markers were in less than useful positions, but I had a few in the mid field that gave some help. @Ogid, the ideas are good and I like thinking out of the box with changlings and your healing suggestion with Serena seems excellent (add to list of models to get), but I'm not sure I'm sold on pillar generation from corpses as a hiring strategy. That said, I'll be playing Molly soon, so I'm in for an uphill battle keeping pillars on the board, but corpses should be plentiful! Healing will be needed, and I need to find a way to make pillars that Molly won't rip down right away and give her cards. Ty! I try to see what other models for the faction could bring to each crew; Glad you like it . Changellings seems good... but I'm also not that sure about the BBS, he brings some pasive healing that is useful with H2K (but black blood could be a problem tho), focused and will eventually grow into a mature. I'd only include them if I need the whole pack (focus, mature, pilars), but only for the corpses it's probably not worth it. But I'd probably pair him with Thoon, Lysa is a "ghost"; the blood sacrifice doesn't work with her. The idea would be getting 2 corpses per turns (charging in one of them not to be a sitting duck), use one for Focused and the other for an Ice Pilar the first 2 turns and then use the Mature to generate more corpses from turn 3 Serena is a great model in general... Talking about Nightmares, for Euripides I think that a double Master that could work well would be Dreamer; He is cheapish for a master, incorporeal and can summon 2 incorporeal minions (Insidious); which is great to fight around the Pilars. And in that double Master Serena could be gold because she could use here mele attack through the minions even from behind a pilar... the only problem is Serena and Dreamer's doesn't ignore Cover. I don't have that much experience into Molly... but she looks like a difficult oponent for Euripides, getting pilars near of her isn't easy; with how big they are, breaking LoS with her is really hard; lack of Armor means her pasive will hurt, rable rissers with flurry (and extra activations) may kill H2K models easier than other minions, and Archie of course... Good luck with that one! At least you have a lot of min 3 damage... or you could maybe try with Hinamatsu, with Size 2 she may break LoS with Molly easily, Onslaught helps and Armor 2 could help if she can't break LoS... but you'd need to include some healing for her... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 Ya, I'm not expecting much. The other player is also quite experienced. To be fair, I should have expected the molly and chosen someone else, but I'm on a Euripides kick and need to get more games under my belt. This will be a good learning experience either way and I hope I can bring some of that back to you all on what to do (or not do :P) when facing a challenge for the big boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 10 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: Ya, I'm not expecting much. The other player is also quite experienced. To be fair, I should have expected the molly and chosen someone else, but I'm on a Euripides kick and need to get more games under my belt. This will be a good learning experience either way and I hope I can bring some of that back to you all on what to do (or not do :P) when facing a challenge for the big boy. mmm... Which list are you going to try? Into which strategy/scheme pool? I'm thinking about it and I'm having a hard time seeying good alternatives here... Forgotten is a tough keyword... The little ones are very cost efffective and hard to kill, the big ones have very good abilities versus your own beaters, and fighting without Ice Pilar support isn't an option for your crew. Plus Archie is a big problem, you'll need 4 attacks with min 3 damage to kill him considering you pass all terrifying duels (so, unless you are very very lucky, you can't kill him in 1 activation); if he times the attack well (last activation)... Some random ideas: Frozen Trophy would be the go-to way to control pieces like Archie, but with Molly it isn't that easy... maybe including the Doppleganger to have 2 Frozen Trophy triggers? That way even in range of Molly you could block him (and then move him far away from Molly's crew with Euripides)... but it's very hard to pull off and you'll need to save a high card for that because the Doppleganger cannot stone; so I'm not sold with that way to deal with it. Inside the Keyword, Probably Gerions and Cyclops would be great in this match up with their min 3 mele damage versus that much H2W (and Cyclops can also help with scheming)... Thoon only has min damage 2, but Frozen Trophy is something to consider; Bultungin are squishy but Forrage and Toss in the Mud will be probably needed. Inhuman Reflexes is going to be a must in your best models versus that much Flurry. For OOK I'd take a look to the Fae Keyword... Rougarous have both Puncture and Flay; it is one of the few models able to deal more than min damage to H2W models, and one of the few models with a decent chance to kill Archie in 1 activation (and one shot Rissers with inhuman reflexes). Aeslin would have min damage 3 next to a underbrush and displace, Autums have puncture and Into thorns (but challenge could be terrible versus Molly)... and from versatiles Hinamatsu + Healer could be a good pair; the Rider or Wrath have a greatsword/puntcture, so they could also be good choices (but maximum 5 damage tho) Maybe I'd try to include 1 BBS + 1 or even 2 Rougarou with IR; grow the BBS into a Mature (another very good model) while feeding the Rougarou(s) and some Savages with Focused (but keep the dog away from Molly, she can debuff it)... That way you won't be that reliant on the Pilars, you can still use them to scheme, give some mobility to Euripides, some minor healing/damage and maybe set up some isolated pilar just in case you can teleport something big to that one (if you also include a Gigant). Without knowing the pool is hard to make a list... but maybe something like: Euripides, Primordial, Hooded (IR), Rougarou (IR), BBS, Cyclops, Bultungin, Lyssa + 3SS (3SS is low but only Euripides can use them... if having some spare SS to draw cards in case of shitty hands weren't important, I'd even consider changing the Lyssa for a second BBS) But IDK, that's just theoryfaux, maybe just with the pilar shenanigans would be enough... It's going to be an interesting battle report 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 Heh, or a trainwreck. Good suggestions. Honestly, if I was playing in a serious manner (not saying I'm not trying!) I would not have picked Euripides into this set. I did so because I want/need more games with him. Strat: Plant explosives. Deploy: Flank. Scheme: Claim jump, search ruins, vendetta, deliver a message, dig graves. The strategy will be a bit of a wash if I take bultungins. They are so fast and with oldways, I can usually survive into turn 3 and they can rush up to 16" per turn thanks to deadly pursuit. Crooligans will more likely avoid than fight so I think there will be tied bombing from minions. Not much I can stop though probably unless I can get some lucky kills early on. Search ruins with cyclops pillars/scheme markers is pretty good. Bultungins can help if they live. Claim jump is ok if I think I'll be able to slug it out in the middle, but I'm worried about how much I'll drop from passive molly damage. I'm not sure about vendetta or deliver but I think I can score a point at least in them or dig graves, 2 in any might be too much though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 Np I wouldn't go for the scheme heavy ones or the one relying on markers, Molly is very very good playing at that (she can remove markers, crooligans too, he can handle extra activations which are extra APs to mess with your markers)... trying to beat her at scheme play isn't easy and also may give her cards. Her passive damage is a pain... but with the right model her 4-6 SS models may be one shoted and the big one are big enough to break LoS hiding behind them. Doing this reduce your maximum damage, but Savages have different ways to deal damage and Concentrate + Attack is always an option. For example Euripides may do Rune-Etched(Frozen Domain) to deal damage and put a marker near; then Glacial Shove to push the one created near of him, and then a good old charge or Gerions may do Shoulder Rush + Attack. I'd pick a strong combat crew and focus in Claim Jump and Deliver a Message (if you get the last activation, dropping a marker near of her with a Cyclops would be easy) or maybe Vendetta (the possible targets versus her crew are akward tho...) and denying her schemers... but I don't have experience versus her so I could be wrong here. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 Scheme markers are indeed quite tricky against Molly! Claim jump is probably a good bet. Don't worry about Lethes caress in the centre as much. Instead of double attacking, just focus and attack. Don't forget the walk + charge combination to double move without triggering her damage. Deliver a message might be good, but no Molly player should ever give you the last activation (she can get extra activations for her minions without giving you pass tokens). So you'll struggle to get the second point (unless you kill off the crooligans). She is very good at picking up unprotected bombs, so make sure your guarding them. Perhaps have your crew really hit the centre and put bombs in front of them. If she takes claim jump, it should be a blood bath on both sides. However, Archie can't handle sustained combat. He is defense four and eventually will die. So you should have the advantage in a sustained fight. Just remember to focus early so you have some stacked for attacks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozer Posted October 3, 2019 Report Share Posted October 3, 2019 After getting a few games in with Euripides, I thought I'd share few anecdotal opinions. Holy haruspicy, seven 40mm 50mm models take up a lot of space! This crew is so starved for room to move around. I'm planning on downsizing my Gigants to Bultungin or - more likely - Lyssa, ASAP! It sounds WAY different on paper than it looks and plays on the map. Gigants are strongly mediocre. They aren't bad, necessarily, they are just only really good at killing - and only within 8" - rather short for a dedicated ranged model. They could do some shenanigans with triggers for scheming or positioning or melee, but other Savages are better at those things anyway. I doubt I would consider taking them outside a Reckoning or kill comp. Cyclops are amazing! They are absolutely an auto-include for Euripides to me. They scheme and poke with unavoidable damage but most importantly they can set up "bowling balls" for Euripides and really spam the map with ice pillars to support other Savages or control movement. Primordial Magic is an unimposing powerhouse of efficiency. Its best ability is handing out incorporeal (often going to Thoon or Euripides) with a close second being the ability to clear markers around pillars. Don't underestimate the value of this little totem, it's fantastic. Thoon seems lackluster save for his Frozen Trophy trigger. Since he's a beater and a tar pit damage sponge, I never found using his Arctic Pull or Hooked Chain was a better option than just swinging with Chain-Wrapped Fists to stack Shielded or do that sweet ice pillar bury with Frozen Trophy. I suspect he'd get more value in a crew with Geryon since they could beat and sponge while he does ice pillar things. I haven't yet played with Bultungin, Lyssa or Geryon. However, I'll admit I'm most excited by Lyssa. When your map has 10+ ice pillars (my rookie number avg at turn 3), small incorporeal models just sound perfect. They seem to help stagger, lure and generally assist in making sure you keep control of the map. What do you guys think about Lyssa? Any experiences playing them? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 4, 2019 Report Share Posted October 4, 2019 14 hours ago, gozer said: seven 40mm models take 50mm! 13 hours ago, gozer said: What do you guys think about Lyssa? They are one I'll need to just put on the table (proxy) to figure out. Maybe this will be the game to do it. Idk. I'm not sure this is their best match up though, but against other crews, especially high movement crews the staggering is going to be great. Point cost is good for df/wp/mv 5 model, health is low, but avg for cost. I get a lot out of my Bultungin and I'm not sure the Lyssa would match them as scheme runners. Mv 6 + 4" push usually will treat me better than incorporeal. However, I do get that they have more directional options due to incorp. so won't get boxed in, but with the bultungin push, I usually get out of any scenario. Bultungins' marker isn't going to help a lot vs molly but old ways is going to help more than misery, though frozen vigor is nice for lyssa (wish bultungins got that...). I think its going to come down to actions. Lyssa have a great built in trigger on Claws, but will only get the +1 damage if a gigant gets its trigger first on a boulder toss. Not often happening. Bring it might be useful to get some big guys up the field, but an 8 is a lot to ask. Best ability though, and Startle is nice to toss out on the chance and will synergize nice with pillar mv duels. So actually, this is where she'll shine potentially. Pulling Euripides up T1 so he can get pillars in better spots, and then giving staggered to an enemy T2 before they get hit with pillars. As for gigants, I really want to make use of shattering shove. Placing a pillar in deployment T1 and then getting a gigant to trigger this to send an enemy back to the pillar could be a really great thing. Molly away from her crew? Position it right and they'll need to remove it in order to leave the corner you box them into. Make another pillar outside of it and they need to move and remove it also! That said, the set-up is tricky. Any thoughts on Angeleyes as a hire? She's 9ss but long range and a nice and crit strike gives possible min4 with a stone. She could remove a crooligan fairly easily. Plus has her sidearm. Night terrors would be more annoying with concealment and extra health, but either way, a focused shot would do the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docbungle Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 So thinking about throwing the big guy at Kirai. Dropping damage that can get round the Urami spiel or at least eating cards seems nice. While Lyssa going for the pseudo obey trigger as well seems ok. But basically playing a game with only tactical actions Thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaclaws01 Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 3 hours ago, docbungle said: So thinking about throwing the big guy at Kirai. Dropping damage that can get round the Urami spiel or at least eating cards seems nice. While Lyssa going for the pseudo obey trigger as well seems ok. But basically playing a game with only tactical actions Thoughts Euripides pillar spam will definitely be nice to drain cards and any staggered that gets thrown out really cuts down the usability of Seishin and stunned hurts Kirai a lot if she has a few summons out, other than that it will generally be better to just beat them up. Geryon are immune to charges and min 3 with Heave/Slow against a crew of mostly 1" ranges. Cyclops are pretty vulnerable with their stats but are scary for anything to go after them. And then there's Thoon to just permanently deal with Ikriyo if she ever gets close to him without enough support thanks to Frozen Thropy which is also really great to use on summoned models as that's damage on kirai that she won't be able to get back with that model's triggers. Also just healing+shielded at the end of each activation will help to mitigate Vengeance a lot, especially if you're just focus attacking and saving The Old Ways for your defensive flips. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 That kind of damage can help, however you'll still need standard attacks. That damage it's not that bursty and still rely in flips that can be cheated; you'll struggle to kill anything big only with the Tactical actions. Kirai have few H2W, but models like the drowned (specially summoned) can mess with you hard (built in stunned trigger and bonus staggered) so mind these (above you have some ideas of how to deal with H2W). The rest of the models can be dealt easily with just focused attacks (consider BBS), however mind Kirai have some healing and condition removal in her keyword so don't go overboard with conditions and focus fire their models. As stated above Frozen Trophy may help a lot in this match up, so thoon could be nice to have (even paired with a Doppleganger, in this case save high tomes for her and stone thoon ones). Careful with Onryo/Goryo and the mark of vengeance as it can deny your healing and Demise(Eternal) from a huge range. Mind also the sheishins and the Henchman hands out free walks that can get around the Geryon's Extended Reach (however the little ones are very vulnerable to the pilar spam damage) so plan well your crew with that in mind. Careful with Goryos, these are glass cannons but hit really hard with Flay, Puncture and Violent Ghost and have a high mobility with the mark of vengeance trigger, Frenzied charge and all the free walks of her crew. All the healing denial could be problematic for this crew, specialy for Geryons (no reform from ice for them)... A way to go around that is including 1 extra hard hitting Henchman an save some SS for blocking damage... Angel Eyes or Wrath could be good ones if you feed them with Focused (plus Wrath has good synergy with Lyssa) or maybe the Rider and use the masks as armor; IR will help a lot with versus all but the Goryos, so I'd include at least 1 Geryon to fight around him. An small disadvantage is Kirai has a lot of Incorporeal models... so the Ice Pilars could hurt your own mobility more that it will hurt hers. It seems doable, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 Hey All, I had my game on Saturday against Molly. Im not going to give a batrep but talk main thoughts. To set the picture, we played Flank, Plant Explosives with Claim jump, search ruins, deliver a message, vendetta, and dig their graves. Crews were: Euripides w/ ancient pact, Primordial magic (w/ eldritch magic), Thoon, Serena Bowman, Cyclops 1 (w/ eldritch magic), cyclops 2, gigant. 7ss (deliver message, claim jump [serena]) Molly, necrotic machine, sloth, archie, dead rider, effigy, crooligan x2, night terror. 6ss (deliver message, search ruins) To picture the board: in my corner (SW) there was ruins with ht3 fence (cover) and a tree to the E. in the center of the map, a large round impassible tower. NW of the tower a forest, SE another forest and further off a ht1 fence. E of the tower was another ruins with ht3 cover for mollys crew and in the NE a large river (severe) that made his starting position really tough. I got lucky on being attacker. It didnt matter too much for him because Archie has leap, the rider is unimpeded, the night terror has flight, and others could deploy almost over the river due to flank deployment. In game, really only sloth got left behind....typical. My goal once I saw the line up, was to outpunch archie and the dead rider with min3 swinging savages and then secure the middle for claim jump and get a point or two on strat, scheme, and a point or two for deliver. I thought if I could get 6pts I might be able to pull a win or at least tie. I did not have a good solution to his schemers. I knew they were fast but I did not know just how far the molly shenanigans went. T1 Molly gave an extra activation to two crooligans and one of them got fast from someone also. Discards allowed the night terror to push off and away and after archie leaped and ran to the NW side of the central tower, a crooligan teleported, ran, and placed a bomb and schemed (fast), then ran and schemed again on its second activation. All in all 3 bombs were placed T1. I was gathering SE side of the tower, and fanning out towards SE forest where the night terror had dropped its bomb. I had several pillars up and molly was not threatening them yet. It all got a bit too tarpooled in the SE area. I over extended the primordial magic to pick up a bomb after Euripides killed the crooligan who had planted it and it died T3. The pillars were helpful for cyclops heals and I actually got good plink damage from a combo of Euripides pillar mv duels and cyclops bonus action, but sloth caught up to archie and healed him for 3 easily (no slow for archie) with necrotic machine doing a bit to help also. Dead rider got low, but I made mistakes not focusing when I should have and he wasted some valuable actions using tokens as crows for damage reduction and killed a gigant and cyclops with bonus action damage. (side note, both cyclops and dead rider have bonus actions that do undefendable damage, yet just now am I thinking about how during the game I felt bad when he killed my gigant and cyclops with it but when I killed his effigy, I did not think he would feel the same. Unstoppable dmg is pretty harsh. He got better trades, but the cyclops did about 9-12 dmg during the game with their bonus too. Serena never got into the center for claim jump, too many bodies on 50mm bases got in there and were not moving. She did do some good early damage against the effigy and it was going to be killed after being placed 6" up with the trigger, but the dead rider was able to double walk and ride with me on the effigy to push and place it to the safety of the forest where it was out of gigant boulder range and then was healed to full by the necrotic machine. Damn. My opponent is a very skilled player and I really appreciated playing him because it makes me focus on trying to hit my objectives more and stick with a plan, as often bad things are happening. I would say the speed of scheme runners in a Forgotten crew are a huge perk and the discard/draw mechanic Molly has is a really interesting playstyle. I think that actually this is one place Euripides does well against her compared to some other masters. Due to his "old ways" he does not rush through his hand so fast, in fact I often carry over 1 or 2 cards to discard or keep for the next turn. This helped because Molly loves to hit models when they cannot cheat against her irreducible damage. I was hit by her passive a few times, but it was not too egregious until late T3 T4, when I had few wounds left to maneuver with. Euripides does lack defensive capabilities in his crew. Shielded and heal 1 are nice, but are best to offset the "old ways" and not to tank min3 slaps with tentacle or sickle. MVPs were Euripides for getting severe 6 dmg to kill a crooligan outright and 4 blast on archie (who healed it, but still), and placing several pillars to chip at necrotic, effigy, and block molly LOS for a bit. He also delivered the message to molly and serena delivered the second part with a scheme later. Cyclopses(?) also did rather well, despite being df4. Critical heals on primordial magic and the main crew were top notch, and plink damage was also very nice. Loosers of the day were the gigant, who got charged and died to the dead rider before activating T2, and Thoon. I really want to like Thoon, but he does not have a lot going for him and it makes me sad. The main issue is he can only pull towards himself with ice pillars or models and there is nothing for pulling a model into a pillar, only the other way around. I know it does not make sense for him to push an enemy model with his attack, and I get to keep with his chain hook idea he should not pull ice pillars, but I figured Magic would be a good enough answer to that problem. But I digress. Without change, his tactical ability is hard to set up and even then, only so effective. Perhaps I am trying to pigeon hole him into something he is not. Maybe I need to try him as an anti scheme runner instead of in the thick of things. His attack stats are good, but his damage is low compared to other cyclops and geryon who cost less. The big noise is his tome trigger for making a pillar from a model, but against molly it was easy to break it open with all the extra activations and 8" marker removal she has. I am going to try him on a wing next game and see how that fairs. I can see him getting some work in turning crooligans to popsicles and counter scheming with mv 6, but in the meat of it, was not his best place. I also wish he had a better bonus action. It is nice, but hardly every useable in my games. The game ended end of T4 6-3 for Molly. She easily got search the ruins with 1 crooligan while everyone was busy and tied up or activated, she got 3 vp from the strat and 1 vp from deliver a message. I got 1 from strat and two from deliver a message. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 Interesting report! Ty! 2 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: Crews were: Euripides w/ ancient pact, Primordial magic (w/ eldritch magic), Thoon, Serena Bowman, Cyclops 1 (w/ eldritch magic), cyclops 2, gigant. 7ss (deliver message, claim jump [serena]) Why ancient pact in eurpides and 2 eldritch magic? You get no extra card with it and 3 sources of condition removal seems a bit overkill... I do like the idea of Eldritch Magic in the totem tho. 2 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: T1 Molly gave an extra activation to two crooligans and one of them got fast from someone also. Discards allowed the night terror to push off and away and after archie leaped and ran to the NW side of the central tower, a crooligan teleported, ran, and placed a bomb and schemed (fast), then ran and schemed again on its second activation. Is this legal? Molly can only give extra activations to activated models; the crooligan can't teleport to the other side of the map and then activate a second time there. 2 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: I really want to like Thoon, but he does not have a lot going for him and it makes me sad. The main issue is he can only pull towards himself with ice pillars or models and there is nothing for pulling a model into a pillar, only the other way around. I know it does not make sense for him to push an enemy model with his attack, and I get to keep with his chain hook idea he should not pull ice pillars, but I figured Magic would be a good enough answer to that problem. But I digress. Without change, his tactical ability is hard to set up and even then, only so effective. Perhaps I am trying to pigeon hole him into something he is not. Maybe I need to try him as an anti scheme runner instead of in the thick of things. His attack stats are good, but his damage is low compared to other cyclops and geryon who cost less. The big noise is his tome trigger for making a pillar from a model, but against molly it was easy to break it open with all the extra activations and 8" marker removal she has. This is a very though match up for Thoon. Versus H2W his min damage 2 is a problem (versus other kind of models you can try to focus and cheat to get severe damage), Ice Trophy is top notch but Molly counters it hard (and it's also true that it works better versus more isolated models) and his ice pilar shenanigans is harder to set up than other Savages and again Molly can remove pilars easily... I wouldn't had picked him versus Molly. Serena is a very good model, but she has the same problem than Thoon in this match up; min damage 2 versus so many H2W... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Ogid said: Why ancient pact in eurpides and 2 eldritch magic? You get no extra card with it and 3 sources of condition removal seems a bit overkill... I do like the idea of Eldritch Magic in the totem tho. Ancient pact for the extra initiative and keeping the main man from getting a black joker. The 2x eldritch was cheaper than a bultungin. But was probably more than needed after all. I was worried about slows and serena 3" didn't seem useful enough to get where it was needed with so many 50mm bases. 9 hours ago, Ogid said: Is this legal? Molly can only give extra activations to activated models; the crooligan can't teleport to the other side of the map and then activate a second time there. I must have misremembered the details here. I'm sure my opponent played correctly. I do know he teleported, and dropped W of the central tower on T1, the scheme markers maybe came early T2 actually, or Archie could have Leaped/walked/schemed. 9 hours ago, Ogid said: This is a very though match up for Thoon Yes, in hindsight I would have done better to drop him and the eldritch magic from cyclops and grab 2x bultungin to hunt crooligans/scheme. I was worried they'd get one shot by archie though so went with the h2k and frozen vigor model instead. I also considered the rougarou suggestion, but not having played it before, nor having the model I didn't want to slow down our game more than I was with a new crew and my own history of over thinking. It looks fearsome, but I did worry about getting it into contact, again due to all those large bases. 10 hours ago, Ogid said: Serena is a very good model, but she has the same problem than Thoon in this match up; min damage 2 versus so many H2W... I liked her for her ranged attack, ignoring armor would have been wonderful against necrotic machine and was good against the effigy. Sadly the forest was a big issue, both for her mv and getting neg flips without focus. The placement trigger seemed really great also, so I could launch enemies towards waiting giants. I'll consider her again. One last thing I'll add is that Terrifying and manipulative are interesting challenges for Euripides crew. WP is pretty standard at 5 for most models, but the abilities really kill Old ways utility. Either you take 1 dmg to pass terrifying with that 12 you have on top of your pile, or you flip and pray its a 6 or better (and lose the 12 forever). Archie had terrifying (so does Rogue necro) and Sloth had manipulative. Manipulative is a little different because if you do focus it is actually often exactly what you want with a big giant. From a negative, you got to a straight flip and can use old ways. So, if I have a high card on my discard, I get the benefit of that 12 for attack, and I get a positive on the damage from focus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 46 minutes ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: Ancient pact for the extra initiative and keeping the main man from getting a black joker. The 2x eldritch was cheaper than a bultungin. But was probably more than needed after all. I was worried about slows and serena 3" didn't seem useful enough to get where it was needed with so many 50mm bases. mmm... I think the pact in Euripides is a bit overkill, the big guy has Intuition; 2SS for +1 initiative and maybe negating a joker isn't worth it imo... with those 2SS you could almost afford a doll for the second Eldritch upgrade if the other player usually go heavy in condition play. 46 minutes ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: Yes, in hindsight I would have done better to drop him and the eldritch magic from cyclops and grab 2x bultungin to hunt crooligans/scheme. I was worried they'd get one shot by archie though so went with the h2k and frozen vigor model instead. I also considered the rougarou suggestion, but not having played it before, nor having the model I didn't want to slow down our game more than I was with a new crew and my own history of over thinking. It looks fearsome, but I did worry about getting it into contact, again due to all those large bases. It's a tricky situation... I think Crooligans will win in a straight fight with the Bultungins if the Molly player has less cards; however Bultungins have the mobility advantage. But Archie can also hunt them down easily and be used to teleport Crooligans, so to field them you'd need to scare or kill Archie first. That's why I suggested my "trainwreck" () strategy, if you can't outrun them, then scare them from using their mobility. Haha, no worries about the Rougarous, that was theroryfaux. He seem to fit but I'm not sure how good it would work in a real game, maybe the rider would had been enough. 46 minutes ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: I liked her for her ranged attack, ignoring armor would have been wonderful against necrotic machine and was good against the effigy. Sadly the forest was a big issue, both for her mv and getting neg flips without focus. The placement trigger seemed really great also, so I could launch enemies towards waiting giants. I'll consider her again. Don't get me wrong, she is great; but I think she doesn't shine in this one. Her ranged attack is only useful versus these 2 models, however a focused hit from a Euripides, Geryon or even a Gigant would also work quite well versus these, the trigger is great but it's hard to do as she is an enforcer and the attack is only stat 5. Models like Thoon and Serena got you in a difficult position imo, you didn't have the firepower to threaten them or kill their models fast. Your opponent was even luckier with this because as he included Sloth and the Effigy, he had a ton of healing and was able to tie you while the crooligans and Archie run around scoring. 46 minutes ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said: One last thing I'll add is that Terrifying and manipulative are interesting challenges for Euripides crew. WP is pretty standard at 5 for most models, but the abilities really kill Old ways utility. Either you take 1 dmg to pass terrifying with that 12 you have on top of your pile, or you flip and pray its a 6 or better (and lose the 12 forever). Archie had terrifying (so does Rogue necro) and Sloth had manipulative. mmm good point about the Terrifying and Old Ways... Very interesting report anyway, ty again for sharing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 Hey all you savages out there! I had another challenging game with Euripides against Leveticus that I thought I'd share. Again, not the best match up for Euripides, but its good to see what are challenges too for him. Wedge deployment, Reckoning with Claim Jump, Take Prisoner, Search the ruins, Vendetta, Assassinate. We both took Search ruins and Claim jump. Final score was 8-3 to Levi with me conceding end of T4 because I would be instantly wiped T5. My crew: E & P, Thoon, Geryon (IR), Cyclops, Gigant x2, Bultungin, 7ss Levi: Levi & waif x2, Rusty Alice, Desolation Engine, Student of conflict, Necropunk x3, 7ss I haven't played against Levi in M3E and only once or twice in M2E so mistakes were made. Main points are this, Levi has irreducible damage (ignore shield/Incorp) and can ignore H2K. Lots of Unmade (tome) with several built in, doing 1 dmg when attacked. Entropy - doing 1 dmg when activating while engaged. Aboms - prevent healing in aura. Levi, Rusty, Des. Engine can all hit really hard. Punks can scheme well with leaps, have armor+1. Usually, between using the old ways, cheating, and frozen vigor you have a good enough defense from attacks, but it becomes less useful when every turn you take 2-3 points of damage between old ways and passive damage from Levi's crew. The passives are especially brutal because the happen when shielded has gone or before it is gathered. Euripides has some HP to tank but most others start dropping quite quickly. I was able to drop the Des. Engine pretty fast, and the abom replacement, but due to terrain and probably poor positioning I couldn't get close enough to do damage to punks until after they charged me the turn prior. Rusty got fast from student and with rapid fire, put down my Geryon T1 even with butteryfly jumping (I'll grant I thought my cover/concealment would be more effective than it was, so got too close perhaps; also wedge deployment with 50mms ) I needed that second cyclops and probably serena again because I really needed some heals with the crew. Ice pillars were good this game at giving cover and used for search the ruins (until my cyclops died), but they can't keep shooters or leaping necropunks from doing their jobs. I did engage both Levi and Rusty at different points at 2" which was good for me and I needed to do more of it, but sadly with being out activated and getting extra action on rusty with Fast from student, it was an uphill battle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozer Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/18/2019 at 5:07 AM, Sol_Sorrowsong said: I needed that second cyclops and probably serena again because I really needed some heals with the crew. Ice pillars were good this game at giving cover and used for search the ruins (until my cyclops died), but they can't keep shooters or leaping necropunks from doing their jobs. A few thoughts: I'm seeing Serena come up often as great model for Neverborn in general but especially for Savages due to the consistent damage from The Old Ways. What was the Primordial Magic up to on T1? Form Given to Winter would have potentially been huge on that Geryon. Also, the Sheer Cold trigger is excellent at taking out scheme markers from range. I typically hold on to at least one 7 of tomes for that purpose. What I'm trying to say is don't underestimate that Primordial Magic. It's one of the most powerful support totems in the game! Like you mentioned - a second cyclops would have been amazing here. The more I play Euripides the more I consider 2 x cyclops to be an auto include against almost anything. They're too useful in too many situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozer Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/14/2019 at 3:26 AM, Sol_Sorrowsong said: One last thing I'll add is that Terrifying and manipulative are interesting challenges for Euripides crew. WP is pretty standard at 5 for most models, but the abilities really kill Old ways utility. Either you take 1 dmg to pass terrifying with that 12 you have on top of your pile, or you flip and pray its a 6 or better (and lose the 12 forever). I've found Savages to be generally a good counter for terrifying and manipulative. Consider that Euripides, Thoon, Primordial Magic, Cyclops and Geryon can all do damage through tactical actions - some of their best actions too - without actually targeting models and thus circumvent those abilities entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 8 hours ago, gozer said: I've found Savages to be generally a good counter for terrifying and manipulative. Consider that Euripides, Thoon, Primordial Magic, Cyclops and Geryon can all do damage through tactical actions - some of their best actions too - without actually targeting models and thus circumvent those abilities entirely. That is true, there are ways in the crew to work sideways against a terrifying or manipulative model. Perhaps with time I'll see better use for when to do the chip damage vs swinging fists. A lot comes down to placing pillars properly and how easily the opponent can shrug off a MV duel or 1-2 dmg. In answer to your first question, Primordial gave Thoon the incorporeal to get through a wall of a house blocking part of my deployment so I'd have a more spread flank and challenge the woods T2 potentially. Because of the speed of his attack primordial wasn't moving terribly efficiently and was going back and forth just putting incorporeal on someone needing to move through severe or impassible or who was under aggressive fire from anyone but Levi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston Posted October 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 @Sol_Sorrowsong Since the TN of the Mv Duel is based on your own duel, Euripides can use a single 13 twice (Old Ways) to pop 4 damage on a model with a TN 19 Mv Duel (hard to pass). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Sorrowsong Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 14 hours ago, Gaston said: @Sol_Sorrowsong Since the TN of the Mv Duel is based on your own duel, Euripides can use a single 13 twice (Old Ways) to pop 4 damage on a model with a TN 19 Mv Duel (hard to pass). True. In the right circumstance and positioning that is very nice. Against necropunks or Rusty taking 1dmg to deal 2dmg each is maybe less value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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