Wanyudo over powered?

[Drunken Monkey]

What was your experience with Wanyudo?

I am asking because after our last game day two players came to me and both agreed on Wanyudo being unbalanced and too powerful for a 7 Soul Stone model. They played a 50 Soul Stone match and a Henchman Hardcore and both times Wanyudo almost wiped the enemy board on its own.

I think it is pretty strong, but if you make sure to keep his reach in mind and walk carefully not to cluster it should usually be no problem. So I played against him yesterday to get my own experience. I did not really stand a chance, but this was not Wanyudo all alone but rather because of the combination with Misaki. Due to Wanudo being a Versatile you can hire him with no additional cost in her crew and her "The Oyabun's Command" in combination with Wanyudo is just insane...

What was your experience with or against Wanyudo? Is the relatively low cost of just 7 Soul Stone justified? Or should at least the 5" push of the attack be a trigger rather than an always appearing side effect?

[yames]

Now I haven't personally used it but just some easily missed rules. With misaki she can only command it once an activation as she doesn't get past the once an activation on charge. 

Also for the wanyudo to push 5 I believe it needs to hit. If it missed I don't believe it can push as the push is in the same area as damage. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. 

All that said it's stat 6 and targets move and has the ability to create alot of move duels. So I do believe it's good. But it's also fragile against things that can target it at range, def 5 with 7 wounds and no damage reduction means any good shooter can lay some real hurt on it. 

[Nikodemus]

It has consistently underperformed when I've faced it, but there could be any number of factors going into it. It dies easy and hasn't done that much damage for whatever reason.

I will say that after reading this I'm tempted to test it out for a few games.

[TheJoyInGaming]

I have used my Wanyudo with Saint Reva and it has always performed well. It is a good model but it is fragile. My wife’s Shang broke the wheel quite easily...

[Cursed25]

14 minutes ago, yames said:

Also for the wanyudo to push 5 I believe it needs to hit. If it missed I don't believe it can push as the push is in the same area as damage. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. 

yes he has to hit to push!

 

Wanyudo is more of a disrupting piece than a true menace! He's really fast and can do some dmg/burning but he is not a true beater. Against fast models he will not do much and has mentionned before he's super squishy! If you hire him I think he is pretty balance for 7ss and maybe a little too strong if summoned by Minako's upgrade. But I think he is in a good place.

 

If you face a wanyudo you just have to target him  a few time with a beater and he will die. Since he is so mobile long range firepower is your best choice, but even melee beaters can easily kill him in one activation. If you don't bring anything that can kill this model you will and you should have massive problems against a lot of tankier and more threatening model than him. 

[zavros]

It seems fine. It's a glass cannon that's good against low cost minions. It could put some damage on a larger model, but is really unlikely to kill one in a single activation before you can hit it back.

Wanyudo has no defensive abilities, even a 5ss minion could put a lot of damage on it and potentially kill it. A  model with good damage tracks can kill it in 1 activation. A good ranged model can kill it before it gets near you.

I'm not sure whats happening in your games where its running over all your models without you having a chance to hit it. Do you have enough terrain?  Remember that pushes can't take a model over terrain in this edition, so the wanyudo will be stopped by random scatter like walls and crates restricting its charge lanes and mobility.

What crews have you played against it? Maybe your taking too many schemers and not enough models that can fight well. 

 

 

 

 

[LeperColony]

He seems decent for a 7 stone model, and I'm sure in the hands of a good player he can be a problem, but as others have mentioned there are definitely answers.  It looks like before he gets into the thick of it, he'll want to be a later turn activation, so during the early rounds you may have a chance to kill him with ranged attacks first.  Once in the scrap, he'd probably want to activate early, which would leave him defenseless if he doesn't run away.

Finally, remember that Malifaux isn't about killing things, despite how caught up in the battle we can get in the moment.  If he's dominating your board, avoid him!  If your opponent tends to bring the same list every time, find a model that can counter Wanyudo, or tie him up.  Although WP 6 is pretty good, if you can get a model to Obey him back into his crew, you can turn the tables!

[Drunken Monkey]

5 minutes ago, zavros said:

I'm not sure whats happening in your games where its running over all your models without you having a chance to hit it. Do you have enough terrain?  Remember that pushes can't take a model over terrain in this edition, so the wanyudo will be stopped by random scatter like walls and crates restricting its charge lanes and mobility.

I made sure he had no straight lines to move over multiple of my models. I tried to make sure that he did not get the first attack as well but had a few horrible flips in round 1. So he could get a good shot at round 2 where he charged a Moon Shinobi rolling over him (move check1), hit him successfully with , moved over him again due to the attack (move check2) and repositioned him thanks to the trigger rolling one more time over the Shinobi (move check3). He survived due to move 6 but 1 AP causing that many duels feels not right.

21 minutes ago, zavros said:

What crews have you played against it? Maybe your taking too many schemers and not enough models that can fight well. 

 

I played a Tri Chi list yesterday, I do not remember what they were playing the last game day😅

I think he is strong but for me its okay. I agree with zavros that it looks like a glass canon. But because two players in my group, including the one playing the Wanyudo came to me because they thought it to be too strong, I wanted to get some other experiences

6 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

Finally, remember that Malifaux isn't about killing things, despite how caught up in the battle we can get in the moment.

What I tell my players all the time🤣 My favourite master since I started playing is Brewmaster and back in M2E he wasn't really known as a beater

[zavros]

4 minutes ago, Drunken Monkey said:

I made sure he had no straight lines to move over multiple of my models. I tried to make sure that he did not get the first attack as well but had a few horrible flips in round 1. So he could get a good shot at round 2 where he charged a Moon Shinobi rolling over him (move check1), hit him successfully with , moved over him again due to the attack (move check2) and repositioned him thanks to the trigger rolling one more time over the Shinobi (move check3). He survived due to move 6 but 1 AP causing that many duels feels not right.

We found the problem.

Burning path only happens after the entire action is done, so if you charge over a model, attack and push over it, and move over it again with the mask trigger, it would still only trigger once after the charge is done as we are finishing up the action. A model could only suffer 2 mv duels max from a wanyudo as he only has 2 actions (unless he gets fast from something). 

[CD1248]

1 minute ago, zavros said:

We found the problem.

Burning path only happens after the entire action is done, so if you charge over a model, attack and push over it, and move over it again with the mask trigger, it would still only trigger once after the charge is done as we are finishing up the action. A model could only suffer 2 mv duels max from a wanyudo as he only has 2 actions (unless he gets fast from something). 

A charge could trigger it twice, as a charge is actually just a push that generates a second action. Generated actions are discreet actions, they are not part of the same action that created them.

[Drunken Monkey]

2 minutes ago, CD1248 said:

A charge could trigger it twice, as a charge is actually just a push that generates a second action. Generated actions are discreet actions, they are not part of the same action that created them.

Sounds right but still Zavros probably found the problem😂 I probably should read the cards of my opponents more carefully🙈

[zavros]

After re-reading charge I agree. You can get 3 burning path triggers in an activation on 1 model. The model is still a glass cannon in that it will run in and try to do as much dmg as it can before it dies.

Brewmaster and whiskey golem can  kill the wanyudo in 1 activation. Most of the crew will have trouble as they are meant to engage and tarpit enemy models and won't be doing much direct damage, so the wanyudo is free to keep trying to charge over as much as it can since your minions aren't as threatening.

If you were playing Mah's crew, you could probably shoot it down 1st turn with all of her good ranged models and put pit traps out to make it difficult to approach without getting injured.

[marke83]

0 games with him. Maybe I'll try today. Got him painted, so why not. Seems very underwhelming in theory; no survivability as others have mentioned, and the damage seems just barely fine. Most of the time specific ss cost is not a huge factor. 6/7/8 stones.. not a big deal if the model is clearly good/sucks.