Seamus crew help needed.

[HadjiMurat]

Hi! With m3e launching, my plan was to brush the dust of my ressers collection, moving on from Arcanists. The first master I was really looking forward to play was Seamus. I've had him since 1ed, but played him only a couple of games.

As a disclaimer, I have just played 2 games of m3e, both with Seamus. First game with mostly keyword models, the second with more ook models (belles, bete, Madam, Nurse, Flesh Construct, Punk Z, RM, Moritimer). While Seamus is an terrific scheme runner, I cant see how to make the rest of the crew do any work at all. Note that the 2 games was against Viks, scoring was close (thx to scheming Seamus). But everyone except Seamus seems meh compared to the speed/ movement, hitting and staying power of the Mercenaries keyword.

The two strats was plant explosives and corrupted idols. Both times the Viks with friends got in my undeads face and wrecked them. With closer deployment and the need to be up the board for strats scoring, what should you do?

So, how do you play Seamus ( or his crew)? In the bubble with his crew? Jumping around taking pot shots and scheming?

What crew have you found working well, either supported by Seamus or by their own?

I own all the ressers masters, and think about moving on, but that would be with sadness cause Seamus is one of those masters that really got me into Malifaux.

I know its still early days, maybe the answer is patience.

Thx in advance for any replies!

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

Seamus is a very strong master with a very weak keyword, so going OOK is usually a right move.

He's my most played master so far, but I do hesitate to bring him into Planted Explosives or Corrupted Idols. However, he is perfect for both Turf War and Reckoning.

This is the crew I am toying since the beginning of 3ed and I recommend you trying it:

Seamus /The Wisper

Copycat Killer

Archie

Carrion Emissary

Nurse

Dead Doxy

Dead Doxy

Dead Dandy

To get more value out of Seamus you want to be able to make two focused attacks on turn one, and that's why you bring Nurse and Emissary (both are great models on their own). Archie is here for mobility and more pressure already from turn one. Most strats and schemes require you reach at least the centerline to score, so being able to tie opposing forces close to their deployment zone already on turn one can deny them many points.

Seamus' main strenght is his mobilty and ability to pick a model and remove it from the game. His preferred targets are big minions or enforcers with Df 5 (that's another reason why Seamus likes his Emissary: Injured!). However, he is very fragile and susceptible to focused attacks which are ubiquitous in competitive meta. This makes him a really sad panda in front of mobile and hard-hitting Masters with access to free focus. I haven't played against Viktorias yet, but I can imagine they can be a very difficult matchup for him.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hey, I’ll happily give my impressions, and they are based on extensive games in 3E, but they are only my opinions so take them with a a grain of salt and make up your own mind.

That said, the reason you can’t get his crew to work is because it doesn’t. Many of the models are garbage, and others that aren’t are thematic failures because what they are good at isn’t what they look like they are supposed to do. They got caught in transition at the end of the closed beta and in my opinion they ran out of time before really ironing the crew out. I will hopefully be posting my tactica in a few days for a more in-depth dive but for now here are my top level thoughts:

Deathball or bubbling, in general, as a primary game plan in 3E is only viable if you are getting such overwhelming advantages you’d be a fool not to do it, and even then it can still be a hinderence. There are too many things in 3E that will punish your models for operating in close proximity. Shockwaves, blasts, auras from markers, black blood, bombs in yer belly, Hazardous terrain auras, and on and on. You are just asking to get abused if you have to rigidly group up to be effective. Opportunistic bubbling is an important tactic, but being able to spread out is critical, I feel. 

The majority of the weight in your crew is going to be carried by Seamus. He is a lynchpin model, if you lose him early, or really at anytime, your game plan is going to be much harder. So keep him safe. Never leave him exposed in an area where he can take sustained attacks. He’s made of glass (for a master) this edition, so protect him.

I tend to run Seamus very aggressively. I will aim to kill at least one model a turn with him, if possible. I usually avoid the opposing master unless I really feel I can put them in the ground and doing so will cripple the opponent. What I will aim for first are models that will cripple the opponent’s game plan. Support models that hide behind the front lines, big enforcer beaters that might hinder my own models from carrying out their game plan, lynchpin models whose mechanics the rest of the opposing crew relies on. Identify the models that are critical to your opponent’s game plan and kill them in priority order. Just don’t get so caught up in killing that you forget what your mission is.

At the same time protect the CCK. Sometimes you will have to use him to save Seamus from a bad situation, but you are going to have much better games if you are using the CCK to make Seamus’ threat range board wide and unpredictable, in addition to giving more opportunities to abandon what he’s doing on one side of the board to do something else elsewhere. Sacrifice him if you need to, certainly, but never casually.

As for the crew, there are only a few Red Chapel models I think are worth your time. 

Bete Noire is an ok hire, but she’s a thematic failure. She looks like she’s supposed to be a killer, but she’s not. What she is good at is denying your opponent’s scheme marker based schemes. If she’s running around with her Trail of Gore action she makes achieving scheme marker based schemes much harder. I tend to personally find that her bury trick is mostly a trap. If you bury you don’t have access to trail of gore, because you need to use her other bonus action to get back on the board, and a clever opponent will either use dropped corpses in the ideal places, or potentially stand models on them or close enough so when you unbury you don’t get your bonus action charge. Consider hiring her if the scheme pool is full of scheme marker based schemes. Ignore her much of the rest of the time. 

Dead Doxies are probably the best Red Chapel Model. Defensible and requiring more app to remove than their stone cost would indicate. Great action to use at range to help make opposing beaters less efficient. Great damaging attack for cost with decent triggers, bonus action movement ability that lets you potentially drop multiple markers a turn or help reposition your models, or the opponent. I almost always hire 2 of these.

Dead Dandies are great models to hire at the same times you’d want Bete. They aren’t great scheme runners for marker efficiency, but they are cheap, and when a 4ss model achieves the same effect per action as a 10ss model in dropping scheme markers, you generally want to take interacts with the cheaper model. With disguised, Manipulative, and H2W they are annoying to remove. But their power again is in denying schemes. For the cost of a 7+ card no scheme in about a 12” is safe, guarded or not. They deny opposing schemes very easily, and can generate corpses themselves if needed for Seamus, Bete, or Blasphemous Rituals.

I find the rest of the Keyword can be safely put on the shelf and forgotten about. I will occasionally bring 2 Mourners, but only if I’m also bringing Toshiro.

For your other out of faction hires, prioritize models that can give focus, have Terror, or generate corpses.

My fairly stable list I finally arrived at is similar to the list above. Although I tend to bring Yin with Grave Spirit’s Touch as opposed to Archie. Archie is a good choice, but I find Yin offers much more flexibility as she makes the rest of the crew scheme far better, with GST she can use dark bargain on herself and regenerate the wounds, and is much better than Archie at getting where she wants to go because she is faster and has flight. Additionally her melee attack is very good for going in and grabbing a model you’ve targeted for Take Prisoner or hold up their forces and moving them into position away from other models. And with GST and the Dandy you can pulse a Focus on Seamus and the Emissary turn 1. And I’ve found getting focus on Seamus without spending his actions is a critical part of using him effectively.

 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

26 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

My fairly stable list I finally arrived at is similar to the list above. Although I tend to bring Yin with Grave Spirit’s Touch as opposed to Archie. Archie is a good choice, but I find Yin offers much more flexibility as she makes the rest of the crew scheme far better, with GST she can use dark bargain on herself and regenerate the wounds, and is much better than Archie at getting where she wants to go because she is faster and has flight. Additionally her melee attack is very good for going in and grabbing a model you’ve targeted for Take Prisoner or hold up their forces and moving them into position away from other models. And with GST and the Dandy you can pulse a Focus on Seamus and the Emissary turn 1. And I’ve found getting focus on Seamus without spending his actions is a critical part of using him effectively.

Very interesting points on Yin! I need to finally read her card.

[HadjiMurat]

Thank you both for taking your time ti answer! And great in depth replies as well! 

Which models could be able to do the strats like plant explosives and corrupted? 

[Fetid Strumpet]

1 hour ago, HadjiMurat said:

Thank you both for taking your time ti answer! And great in depth replies as well! 

Which models could be able to do the strats like plant explosives and corrupted? 

Depends on what you are facing. That’s another reason I tend to use Yin. She’s fast enough to get to the locations, and with Regen she can heal back from kicking the idol. In a worst case scenarios you can run another model up to the idol and have Yin have them kick it.

She also tends to get 2 bombs for plant explosives. Move 12” and drop a bomb, or drop a bomb, move 6, then drop another. 

Seamus tends to get 2 bombs, and this is an example of why giving Seamus focus outside his activation is so critical. There is a large difference between jumping in, focusing, focused shot, jump out, and Jump in, Focused Shot, drop bomb, jump out.

Doxies can also be good targets for carrying Bombs. 

If you hire Bete she can be a good model to carry a bomb.

Also just as a note, Archie is a very good hire for him and it just depends on what you need more of, more hitting power, or more scheme flexibility. 

[HadjiMurat]

Thx again, will try Seamus a couple of more times. At least while Molly and Kirai is being built and painted.

If I get you correct, even if there are ways to make Seamus work, his keyword is not that good at the moment. I'll guess he will go back collecting dust again when my other masters are finished, waiting for his moment to shine.

[frumpypigskin]

I was wondering if anyone had much success with yin. I've just picked up Yan Lo and am yet to try either of them but was wondering why I might take yin over Manos. I did think of maybe claim jump but take prisoner makes much more sense. He'd still have trouble getting his job done once engaged where Manos can use leap to disengage and has the regen built in without needed the upgrade.... So apart from the pull shenanigans and construction wouldn't you be better off with Manos OOK instead of Yin + upgrade for 1 more SS? Not to mention he can use SS. 

 

How many SS do you find yourself running with the mad hatter? What do you mostly use them for? Plus flips? Keep your master alive?

 

Thanks!

[Fetid Strumpet]

I had those same questions, and of course manos is excellent, has a better reliquary, can do more dmg, and on and on. However, everything is a question of trade offs. Manos would work very well, and in certain matchups, such as Leveticus, he’d go in instead of Yin for the Lantern of Souls ability. 

But in a general sense, and probably only for Seamus, I prefer Yin. Here’s why:

1: Terror. Manos doesn’t have Terror, and at present in a Seamus crew, I can’t give him Terror. Terror is only really useful the more models you have with it, so that there is constant pressure on the opposing hand. If you only have 1 model with Terror it really isn’t hard to play around it and almost ignore it, but if most or a good percentage of the models the opponent wants to interact with have Terror, then that pressure is constant. 

Terror also can help with disengaging. If Yin is engaged and I don’t want her to be, when she tries to leave I can force Terror checks if you want to stop her. That can also work well with Scarlet Temptation from the Doxies.

2: Flight. While leap is amazing Flight helps so much all the time. I play generally on dense city boards, with multiple levels, walkways, and alleyways. Flight helps with that immensely. 

3: Constriction. There are a few schemes that require you to get one of your models near another and keep them there. In 3E that can be tough because it is so much easier to get away from engagement, so you usually have to plan your activation order around waiting for your target to activate first, and getting them afterward. Yin solves that by being able to be proactive. Yin can dart in, hit you once or twice with her built in trigger to move you and her into a better position, and then unless you have some other way to get away you are probably stuck and aren’t running away to deny those points.

4: Blasphemous Ritual. While it is true I could have Manos with built in regen for less than the cost of Yin, I generally want Blasphemous ritual if I can get it. As I said Seamus wants to get as much focus built up on himself as he can that he doesn’t have to spend his AP on. And with a Dandy in the list I can generate a corpse for Blasphemous Ritial to give him and anyone near him 1 additional focus. And while it’s true I could give Manos Grave Spirit’s Touch, now that’s 12ss, and in order to use it I will severely cut Manos’ maneuverability any turn he wants to use it.

5: Dark Bargin. This ability is the big reason I bring Yin. In essence on most turns it essentially just allows Yin a bonus action to interact. But the flexibility it allows by it to be used on other models is key. 80% of the time Yin will use it on herself, but the flexibility of offers for scheming is very important. If an interact action NEEDS to happen in a certain place, and Yin is too far away to do it herself, I can move another model who is closer into position, and as long as Yin is within 18” of that model I can still make it happen.

I mean to be clear both Archie and Manos are amazing models and I don’t think you’d be wrong to use either one. But I do think Yin, maybe solely in a Red Chapel crew, is worth playing around with too.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Oh sorry, I didn’t see the SS question. Ummm I tend to run between 3 and 5 SS. What I mostly use them for are drawing cards at the beginning of the turn. A big issue for the Red Chapel crews I run is the proliferation of TNs. Seamus needs multiple 7+ to jump, Doxies need 6+ for Take by the Hand, Emissary needs an 8+ for exhume, Dandies need 7+ to make corpses. That’s the big reason the Whisper is stapled to his card, and why I’m usually burning stones for additional card draw.

 

[Modernpenguin]

Glad to see you didn't give up on Seamus Fetid. In the beta it sounded like you had moved on 😀 Going to enjoy reading your deep dive into Seamus later, for now I have shied away from him.. 

[HadjiMurat]

Resurrecting this thread.

I have pondered a lot about how to make Seamus work, not wanting to give him up. Following Fetid's tips about terrifying and focus on Seamus, I plan to muster the following crew in my next games;

• Seaums w/ The Whisper
• CCK
• Yin w/ Grave Spirits Touch
• Carrion Emissary
• Archie
• Gravedigger
• Zombie ( or Bete Noir if scheme marker removal is vital)
• Insert a 5-6 ss model if not Bete is in the crew.

I felt that I lacked both speed and resilience with the redchapel crew, this crew on the other hand has plenty of both. Gravedigger and Yin gives Seamus Focus +2, Emissary can create blocking terrain and a corpse as a jump point for Seamus (and to remove restrictions on his gun). The crew is pretty self sufficient, and can do schemes and strats when Seamus prey on the weak.

Comments and critique are welcome, what do you see as this crew main weaknesses or strenghts? Suggestions for other models?

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

[TomResser]

Hello HadjiMurat,

how do you want to give Seamus focus +2? Gravedigger can use his action "stitch up" only on undeads ( Seamus is living) and Yin has no action with focus!?

What is in generally the job of Gravedigger in a Seamus crew?

The rest of your strategy sounds good.

 

 

 

[SoulGambit]

Gravedigger has Blasphemous Ritual built in, and Grave Spirit's Touch gives a model Blasphemous.

[SoulGambit]

I will note, that while Redchapel is described as a terrible keyword, a use has been for every model except Madam Sybelle and Rotten Belles. I feel like "Redchapel Sucks" is more "those two models suck."

Admittedly, that is also all of the models that come in Seamus' Crew Box, so I understand the association.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Mourners are also pretty garbage. And even the models that are useable I wouldn’t call “good” just mostly functional. So I would disagree with just those two models being the issue with Red Chapel.

[TomResser]

4 hours ago, SoulGambit said:

Gravedigger has Blasphemous Ritual built in, and Grave Spirit's Touch gives a model Blasphemous.

That means Yin and Gravedigger use both in the first round Blasphemous Ritual to give Seamus (and maybe some other modells) focus +2. This is very strong!

But for this actions are 2 corpse marker needed. In the first round is only 1 corpse marker available (recent funeral). How do you get the second corpse marker?

[Fetid Strumpet]

48 minutes ago, TomResser said:

That means Yin and Gravedigger use both in the first round Blasphemous Ritual to give Seamus (and maybe some other modells) focus +2. This is very strong!

But for this actions are 2 corpse marker needed. In the first round is only 1 corpse marker available (recent funeral). How do you get the second corpse marker?

I do it with a nurse, Grave Spirit’s Touch Blasphemous Ritual bonus action, and a corpse created by a Dandy.

[TomResser]

9 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I do it with a nurse, Grave Spirit’s Touch Blasphemous Ritual bonus action, and a corpse created by a Dandy.

That make sense!

But how does it work without dany?

And what is the job of  Gravedigger in a Seamus crew? Schemerunner?

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

You’ll need to ask someone who uses them. I don’t like using gravediggers with Seamus.

[newsun]

11 hours ago, TomResser said:

That make sense!

But how does it work without dany?

And what is the job of  Gravedigger in a Seamus crew? Schemerunner?

 

Turn one focus blast then scheme runner makes sense. Depends on the build. If you have Bette or golem it's also an easy way to get them back on the board.

[HadjiMurat]

17 hours ago, TomResser said:

That make sense!

But how does it work without dany?

And what is the job of  Gravedigger in a Seamus crew? Schemerunner?

For me the gravedigger was in the crew mainly for testing the focus "engine". I also had a carrion emissary in the crew for an extra corpse marker to get blasphemius ritual from.

I found little else use from the gravedigger, to slow and no terrifying. My last games with Seamus was with this core:

Seamus, CCK, Archie, Yin, Carrion Emissary. 

An independent and fast crew that gets where they are needed, and with decent recilliense cause of the multitude of terrifying. It has performed ok, but I feel it lacks the extra level some (many) other keywords/ leaders can bring to the table. 

[SoulGambit]

How/were you giving Seamus Focus outside of his activation? Seamus with another model giving Focus is a whole different world from a Seamus that needs to take the Concentrate action.

[HadjiMurat]

On 11/2/2019 at 7:58 AM, TomResser said:

 

 

[Granty1982]

The grave digger pulses out focus turn 1 from the corpse he drops (1 focus for seamus). If you have toshiro he gives Seamus a second focus. 

Grave digger can then scheme run or move about with toshiro providing a means for an ashigaru every turn. Failing that the GD hides in deployment digging a corpse and laying a scheme each turn for a VERY easy dig graves second point