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Centering shockwave markers


wizuriel

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Cracking energies: when this model would drop a shockwave marker, it may instead instead center that marker on a friendly wizz-bang model within range.

Full load: shockwave 2 mv 15 damage 2 centered on the chosen model.

Suddenly doves! Instead of dropping a shockwave marker, this action may center it's shockwave on a mechanical dove within range.

 

All these abilities actions play around with how shockwave markers are dropped. Question is does the chosen model need to take the shockwave test, or does centering it mean the model pulses the shockwave meaning it doesn't take the test.

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1 hour ago, wizuriel said:

Cracking energies: when this model would drop a shockwave marker, it may instead instead center that marker on a friendly wizz-bang model within range.

Full load: shockwave 2 mv 15 damage 2 centered on the chosen model.

Suddenly doves! Instead of dropping a shockwave marker, this action may center it's shockwave on a mechanical dove within range.

 

All these abilities actions play around with how shockwave markers are dropped. Question is does the chosen model need to take the shockwave test, or does centering it mean the model pulses the shockwave meaning it doesn't take the test.

Crackling Energies and Suddenly doves are "instead" effects for the act of dropping a marker. This means the chosen model is the generating object for the pulse and thus isn't affected.

Full Load is just a normal shockwave, it doesn't replace the step where you drop the shockwave marker. Thus the model would be affected, in the same way any other model with a shockwave marker dropped on it's head would be.

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1 minute ago, CD1248 said:

Crackling Energies and Suddenly doves are "instead" effects for the act of dropping a marker. This means the chosen model is the generating object for the pulse and thus isn't affected.

Full Load is just a normal shockwave, it doesn't replace the step where you drop the shockwave marker. Thus the model would be affected, in the same way any other model with a shockwave marker dropped on it's head would be.

Does it matter what size the model's base is, since shockwave markers are 30mm? If it were "centered" on a 50mm base, would it extent 30mm, then still be touching the last 20mm of the model it was centered on?

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24 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Does it matter what size the model's base is, since shockwave markers are 30mm? If it were "centered" on a 50mm base, would it extent 30mm, then still be touching the last 20mm of the model it was centered on?

Full Load can only throw Sz1 models, which to my knowledge only include 30mm bases for Bayou. Hypothetically, if you dropped the shockwave marker centered on a 40mm model it would ONLY hit that model, because the marker would be completely under it's base and thus unable to draw LOS.

 

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4 minutes ago, CD1248 said:

Full Load can only throw Sz1 models, which to my knowledge only include 30mm bases for Bayou. Hypothetically, if you dropped the shockwave marker centered on a 40mm model it would ONLY hit that model, because the marker would be completely under it's base and thus unable to draw LOS.

 

Have a rules reference to back up the "completely covering" part?  I haven't found one, and without it you're still down to determining if it blocks LOS the normal way (meaning a ht 2 model sees "over" the 40mm ht 1 model to the shockwave marker underneath).

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18 minutes ago, Clement said:

Have a rules reference to back up the "completely covering" part?  I haven't found one, and without it you're still down to determining if it blocks LOS the normal way (meaning a ht 2 model sees "over" the 40mm ht 1 model to the shockwave marker underneath).

You seem to be correct there actually. So that hypothetical would only be terribly relevant in a Bayou mirror match.

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1 hour ago, Clement said:

Have a rules reference to back up the "completely covering" part?  I haven't found one, and without it you're still down to determining if it blocks LOS the normal way (meaning a ht 2 model sees "over" the 40mm ht 1 model to the shockwave marker underneath).

There is a rule that specifies that a model of a base size of 30mm on top of a marker of the same size, still allows to draw LoS to the marker.

So from my point of view is common sense that if a model with base size 40mm is on top of a 30mm marker, then nobody can draw LoS to that marker.

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1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

There is a rule that specifies that a model of a base size of 30mm on top of a marker of the same size, still allows to draw LoS to the marker.

So from my point of view is common sense that if a model with base size 40mm is on top of a 30mm marker, then nobody can draw LoS to that marker.

eh....  that's bad logic.  A implying B doesn't mean  "not A" implies "not B".   The paragraph above says when two markers are on top of each other, they both continue working.   That in no way implies if two markers are *not* on top of each other, one of them stops working.

Last edition this was errata'd in via FAQ.  You may very well end up right, but it would have to be brought in via FAQ/Errata again.

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4 minutes ago, Clement said:

eh....  that's bad logic.  A implying B doesn't mean  "not A" implies "not B".   The paragraph above says when two markers on top of each other, they both continue working.   That in no way implies if two markers are *not* on top of each other, one of them stops working.

Last edition this was errata'd in via FAQ.  You may very well end up right, but it would have to be brought in via FAQ/Errata again.

I know it's bad logic ;) but it what makes sense to me. Also the paragraph you're quoting talks about markers, not a model in top of a marker.

As stated in the p16, sight lines can't cross a model's base and sight lines can only be blocked by models of terrain. So IMHO it's quite "twisting" the rules what you said.

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9 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

I know it's bad logic ;) but it what makes sense to me. Also the paragraph you're quoting talks about markers, not a model in top of a marker.

As stated in the p16, sight lines can't cross a model's base and sight lines can only be blocked by models of terrain. So IMHO it's quite "twisting" the rules what you said.

p16 right column says the sight lines between two objects that cross a model's base *might* be blocked, depending on that model's size.  Note the use of the word "object" here so we can apply it for determining line of site from a marker to a model and vice versa.

It then goes on to direct you to p17 where it goes on to say that "when Drawing LoS between two objects, any intervening models or terrain with a Size or Height that is lower than either of the two objects is ignored"  (There's that "objects" word again).  So if Sz 1 Pere Ravage is centered over a marker, he does not block line of sight to the marker for nearby Sz 2 models.

 

edit: and the rules reference I gave in your quote wasn't intended to be in any way related to the matter of markers, models standing on them, and LoS.  It was meant as an example of why that logic doesn't "work".  Sorry for dragging us off topic.

Edited by Clement
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I mean the possible solution to this is that the shockwave isnt 30mm, and instead becomes the size of the model's base. Shockwave attacks specify that you drop a 30mm marker, if the shockwave was centered on a 40mm model perhaps the base of the model counts as the marker, and therefore radiates out as if it were a 40mm marker

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1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

I mean the possible solution to this is that the shockwave isnt 30mm, and instead becomes the size of the model's base. Shockwave attacks specify that you drop a 30mm marker, if the shockwave was centered on a 40mm model perhaps the base of the model counts as the marker, and therefore radiates out as if it were a 40mm marker

The issue is that Full Load doesn't say it's not dropping a shockwave marker. The intent is pretty obvious that it's using the model instead of a shockwave marker, but it looks like that was missed in the beta.

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1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

The issue is that Full Load doesn't say it's not dropping a shockwave marker. The intent is pretty obvious that it's using the model instead of a shockwave marker, but it looks like that was missed in the beta.

I don't believe that to be the intent actually.

It seems to me that dropping the marker on Full Load is intentional to possibly damage/kill the thrown model, and I think this is born out by the wording on it's trigger.

Sure, they could add in the "instead" text and add a clause to the ability to inflict damage to the model, but why bother adding text when the ability is already working?

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9 hours ago, CD1248 said:

I don't believe that to be the intent actually.

It seems to me that dropping the marker on Full Load is intentional to possibly damage/kill the thrown model, and I think this is born out by the wording on it's trigger.

Sure, they could add in the "instead" text and add a clause to the ability to inflict damage to the model, but why bother adding text when the ability is already working?

I agree that seems to be rules as intended, but I feel centering is too close to Wong's and Cassandra's ability where that isn't the rule as intended isn't that those models also take the shockwave test.

 

just because those 2 mention instead I don't read that they generate the shockwave, especially since other actions have wording for doing a :ToS-Pulse: from a chosen model (example Bokor's healing burst trigger)

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2 hours ago, wizuriel said:

I agree that seems to be rules as intended, but I feel centering is too close to Wong's and Cassandra's ability where that isn't the rule as intended isn't that those models also take the shockwave test.

 

just because those 2 mention instead I don't read that they generate the shockwave, especially since other actions have wording for doing a :ToS-Pulse: from a chosen model (example Bokor's healing burst trigger)

The rule literally says "when this model would drop a shockwave marker, it may instead"... 

It is explicitly telling you to not drop a marker. 

There seems to be some strange assumption happening that because these two rules are aesthetically similar they must have identical function, but I can't fathom why that must be the case. They have different wording that tells you to do different things, so they function differently.

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