Game Length

[Adran]

8 hours ago, GameSoHard said:

How do you find using the chess clocks? (And how do you do it?) if it’s just per activation then if the other person is deciding to cheat or not on your clock that could be unfair/frustrating. 

This is part of the reason I wouldn't suggest Chess clocks as a competitive thing (also its hard to put in a valid punishment for ending the clock, depending on how you are running your clock ) but using them to help focus your mind on how much time you're using it shouldn't matter.

 

8 hours ago, LeperColony said:

Finally, in a specifically Malifaux concern, an increment helps reduce the time pressure the player with the larger crew will naturally encounter.  Even that might not be enough though, and it may be more fair to use a timing structure that gives each player X minutes + Y per model in the starting crew.  

You're right this would be a fairer way of working it out, but it doesn't quite solve the problem that most people want to  use chess clocks to solve, naming fitting a game in a set time, because this gives games different lengths based on the crew size.

[LeperColony]

7 hours ago, Adran said:

You're right this would be a fairer way of working it out, but it doesn't quite solve the problem that most people want to  use chess clocks to solve, naming fitting a game in a set time, because this gives games different lengths based on the crew size.

If the clock is used with a fixed time and no increment, then I think it just becomes another part of the meta.

 

EDIT: Though now it also occurs to me that the variance between starting crew model counts is unlikely to be that large in most cases, so the vast majority of games should still fit into predictably sized blocks.  And if a game is still going when the tournament round ends, you just use whatever resolution system the event has for the situation.

[bertmac]

Played 7 games on the weekend all completed within time, in fact probably ended up with a games worth of time left at the end all together. Rounds were 2hrs15minutes.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, bertmac said:

Played 7 games on the weekend all completed within time, in fact probably ended up with a games worth of time left at the end all together. Rounds were 2hrs15minutes.

What was the average crew size would you say? I'm curious if competitive tournaments tend to have fewer models than a lot of players field (for one thing, 'elite' crews seem very competitive).

[Mycellanious]

10 hours ago, bertmac said:

Played 7 games on the weekend all completed within time, in fact probably ended up with a games worth of time left at the end all together. Rounds were 2hrs15minutes.

Did you have time to set up / pick schemes / deploy before the clock started? I usually spend the first 15 minutes allotted just setting up. 

[bertmac]

3 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Did you have time to set up / pick schemes / deploy before the clock started? I usually spend the first 15 minutes allotted just setting up. 

No that was included in the 2hr 15min timeframe. But we did have all the strats and schemes from the start of day 1.

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

What was the average crew size would you say? I'm curious if competitive tournaments tend to have fewer models than a lot of players field (for one thing, 'elite' crews seem very competitive).

I'd say 8 models was average think i faced one 7 and one 9 model crew.

[Starrius]

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

What was the average crew size would you say? I'm curious if competitive tournaments tend to have fewer models than a lot of players field (for one thing, 'elite' crews seem very competitive).

For me 8 to 10 is average.

 

This obviously gets thrown out ofnthe window with summoners as hamelin turn 2 you can have somewhere up to about 16.

 

7 models for me feels generally the smallest I like to go and even then that's very very rarely 

[ttsgosadow]

My experience as well. I finished 4 out of 7 games till turn 5, 3 games till turn 4 this weekend. My crew was 9 models, sometimes summoning one extra in turn 2/3. Some games even had time left at the end. I'd say playing an agressive crew helps as it reduces the number of models on the board.

[Starrius]

My last 2 games have been over in about 1 hour 45 mins

 

Titania vs karai

 

And 

Youko vs perdita

[DuBlanck]

I think I finished turn 4 in five games and finished turn 4 5 in two games over the weekend.

The game runs just fine once everyone is familiar with it all, and players are in a position where they don't have time to just sit and think for ten minutes.

[Mycellanious]

5 hours ago, Starrius said:

For me 8 to 10 is average.

 

This obviously gets thrown out ofnthe window with summoners as hamelin turn 2 you can have somewhere up to about 16.

 

7 models for me feels generally the smallest I like to go and even then that's very very rarely 

I played against Asami recently with Minako as a hire. My opponent had 12, complicated activations a turn. We didnt finish. But on the upside my turns were quick "Pass-pass-pass" and I hot +6 to the initiative

[Starrius]

13 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I played against Asami recently with Minako as a hire. My opponent had 12, complicated activations a turn. We didnt finish. But on the upside my turns were quick "Pass-pass-pass" and I hot +6 to the initiative

Tbh after a few games even with 16 models you get faster.

 

Even when using hamelin I can have very fast turns

[Mycellanious]

17 minutes ago, Starrius said:

Tbh after a few games even with 16 models you get faster.

 

Even when using hamelin I can have very fast turns

but 12 of those models were rats. walk-walk ur turn.

[Starrius]

16 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

but 12 of those models were rats. walk-walk ur turn.

It's not that simple I like to attack with some then turn another into a rat king. There is though in the process also rats can actually do damage I've killed henchmen with rats

[Starrius]

4 rats in tandom depending on spacing can be melee  damage 1/2/2 it's not much but it can add up and the 4th rat turns into a rat king melee  2/4/5.

 

It's nothing fancy but it's also not something you can just ignore either

[Griautis]

I was also in the 7 game tournament. I finished 3/7 games. I asked pretty much all of my opponents how did they go with previous games, and I am highly confident that the vast majority of players did not finish a lot of their games. The highest tables/topmost players did  get there more, but the only person whom I played against who finished all games in time, was when I was playing at table #6. 

I'm also willing to bet that high skill players tend to go to forums on higher frequency, so whatever the outcome of such discussions here is, we can assume that the reality is a bit "slower" than that. 

[Starrius]

1 minute ago, Griautis said:

I was also in the 7 game tournament. I finished 3/7 games. I asked pretty much all of my opponents how did they go with previous games, and I am highly confident that the vast majority of players did not finish a lot of their games. The highest tables/topmost players did  get there more, but the only person whom I played against who finished all games in time, was when I was playing at table #6. 

I'm also willing to bet that high skill players tend to go to forums on higher frequency, so whatever the outcome of such discussions here is, we can assume that the reality is a bit "slower" than that. 

I do think experience is the factor for finishing games. I spend time reading and rereading cards and trying to memorise things.  I've had games with new crews with me and my friends and had them suffer from analyse paralysis, I think this is something that happens when you have to use 8 to 10 models and dont always remember everything,

 

But as you play a crew.more and more and use models more you naturally speed up.  We all work at very different speeds, and when you have 8 models you know well vs 8 models you dont know as well and then have to think about the schemes and strats there is a lot of information that you have to go through

[Griautis]

Obviously.

I'm just trying to provide a counterweight to people who say "yeah,totally finish game in 2 hours". If you're not finishing games in that amount of time, there's nothing wrong with you. (this is directed at anyone reading this). It just means you don't have the experience, and most people don't have the experience yet. 

[Starrius]

3 minutes ago, Griautis said:

Obviously.

I'm just trying to provide a counterweight to people who say "yeah,totally finish game in 2 hours". If you're not finishing games in that amount of time, there's nothing wrong with you. (this is directed at anyone reading this). It just means you don't have the experience, and most people don't have the experience yet. 

I agree.  I also think you shouldnt complain if you dont get to turn 5, the community doesnt really need a "you're too slow" mentality we should aim to help those and improve the game as a whole

[bertmac]

When learning there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking your time to get to know how everything works.

There are some more experienced players that take extra long and it worries me that, that may be a tactic on their side.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think everyone failing to finish games should adopt a "I am too slow" mentality.

It is something we should pressure ourselves on and be understanding of others IMO.

That said, some players are chronic slow players and don't acknowledge it. If it repeats across events, a friendly chat from a Henchmen or other community leader could help encourage them to work on it.

In extreme cases where someone is obviously abusing the situation, you can have stricter action or even ban them from events... But I can't imagine anyone would be that nightmarish over small prize tournaments.

[Maniacal_cackle]

For high tier competitive tournaments, you could also penalise overall points for unfinished games.

Then you get the slower players getting the larger average penalty (and a few fast players unfairly punished. But they're favoured on average).

For instance, if after match wins the first tiebreaker is 'most finished games', that will encourage competitive players to not abuse slow play.

[Jesy Blue]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For instance, if after match wins the first tiebreaker is 'most finished games', that will encourage competitive players to not abuse slow play.

I like this.... it rarely will come up, but if it does it's big.

[LeperColony]

38 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For instance, if after match wins the first tiebreaker is 'most finished games', that will encourage competitive players to not abuse slow play.

But it would also disincentivize certain play styles like summoners or cheaper, more numerous model crews.  Additionally, it would punish people for unfinished games even if they weren't the party at fault.  

I continue to find interest in chess-style timing with increments, and also some kind of crew per-model time scale, such that larger crews get more total time, but less time per model.

If the round ends due to round time, then the current ending time rules apply.  But if either player runs out of time, they lose regardless of the vp score.

Though of course, this is far from perfect as well.  Ultimately all these timing rules are a concession to the reality that for multi-round events, playing out 5 turns is frequently not feasible.  So it becomes pick-your-poison.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

Though of course, this is far from perfect as well.  Ultimately all these timing rules are a concession to the reality that for multi-round events, playing out 5 turns is frequently not feasible.  So it becomes pick-your-poison.

I agree it is a pick-your-poison sort of problem. Personally I prefer the least intrusive mechanism possible, so that people can focus on their actual games.

3 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

But it would also disincentivize certain play styles like summoners or cheaper, more numerous model crews.  

I think any system that tries to address timing issues is inevitably going to discourage summoners, and large model crews. Hell, even without any system for timing issues, merely from a desire to actually finish my games I'm moving towards smaller crews (until I get better at the game).