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ooshawn

Questions about future support for Deadmans Hand And Changing factions

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I'm a malifaux player from way back and I'm gonna jump back in for third edition. So i'm ordering the rest of the neverborn and looking through everything only to find that I've basically lost two of my absolutely favorite crews (collodi , Jakob lynch,  and nicodem*) if tournament play keeps things in faction and goes by the rules. Is there going to be continued support for this deadman's hand stuff, and will I ever have access to jakob lynch again in tournaments? I gotta say I would have been a lot less apt to spend 300$ on my gencon online order if I knew these changes ahead of time.  It's not really a big deal in casual play, but most of the people I know that play the game are big into travel for tournaments and hold big events.

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I'm new to the game, but here's my impression.

I think Dead Man's Hand is always going to be unsatisfactory, so be prepared for that. But it seems to be a compromise - a lot of players are in your position, so instead of knocking those models out of the game entirely when they experienced story death (or similar), they have provided a way to keep playing them.

Jakob Lynch you can definitely still play as he is a Ten Thunders master. So there's no problem there (unless your concern is you might have to declare 'Neverborn' for a tournament and then not have him?)

It's not an ideal situation, but there's two things that others are doing that might help you.

  • Talk to your local tournament organiser. I'm split over two factions, and we might allow me to use a master from each in tournaments (still have to talk to him about it more) rather than single faction. The same can be done for DMH.
  • If you don't want to hang onto Jakob Lynch, loads of people are buying/selling these types of crews at the moment. Since lots of people are in similar positions, there's lots of trading of old 2E crews at the moment to get people sorted for their factions.

Sorry you're stuck in such an awkward position. Hopefully it resolves well!

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yeah from memory I think most of the time , it was like pick your faction and it was concrete for sure.  he is probably the only ten thunders master I have any interest in , so it's basically like i'm losing that entire crew

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6 hours ago, ooshawn said:

I gotta say I would have been a lot less apt to spend 300$ on my gencon online order if I knew these changes ahead of time.

While I do understand the frustration with this change it has been public knowledge for well over a year. 

 

As far as tournament support goes, Dead Man's Hand models are not legal for official tournaments, but may be at local events at the TOs discretion.  However, some people have raised concerns about the power level of DMH models so they may well be excluded from more tournaments as things level off and people get to grips with M3E.

 

I wouldn't expect them to be supported further though.  The rules exist so that people with those crews can still play with their models casually, but those characters are no longer part of the ongoing story for various reasons (Ramos and Lilith are imprisoned, Ryle has been switched off, Dashel apparently killed Collodi, etc.) but they won't be expanded upon.  Of course, all of the DMH characters still exist in lore in some form (except Collodi and Nicodem, but they are special cases who could easily have ways of being brought back) so there is always the possibility that a new version of those characters may make a (tournament-legal) appearance in the future, but I wouldn't bet any money on it happening in the next couple of years.

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For what it's worth, for a Collodi crew, especially if you were heavy into puppets, one way forward is to let your puppet henchmen step forward and lead.

Widow Weaver and Hinamatsu won't do everything that Collodi did, but doing everything that Collodi did is allegedly what landed Collodi in the DMH.  

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15 minutes ago, solkan said:

For what it's worth, for a Collodi crew, especially if you were heavy into puppets, one way forward is to let your puppet henchmen step forward and lead.

Widow Weaver and Hinamatsu won't do everything that Collodi did, but doing everything that Collodi did is allegedly what landed Collodi in the DMH.  

Its similar for Lilith too, really.  Just run Nekima as your Master (she is the M3E Master anyway) and you're good to go.

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3 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

Its similar for Lilith too, really.  Just run Nekima as your Master (she is the M3E Master anyway) and you're good to go.

Yeah, that's a possible option for a Nephilim crew.  If you didn't mind buying Nekima.

The original M2E Nekima model was atrocious, and I didn't bother to buy it.  (Bikini Nekima... 😱)  The alt Nekima model was really awesome, but it had M2E Nekima's rules on it.  :P

In the PDF cards, Awesome Nekima's card is in the ALT section, Bikini Nekima is in the regular section.  I haven't seen the Neverborn book yet to see which model (or a resculpt) wins the battle.  Between the current boxes, and the alt versions, there's a lot of room for speculation how that's all going to go down.  

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43 minutes ago, solkan said:

In the PDF cards, Awesome Nekima's card is in the ALT section, Bikini Nekima is in the regular section.  I haven't seen the Neverborn book yet to see which model (or a resculpt) wins the battle.  Between the current boxes, and the alt versions, there's a lot of room for speculation how that's all going to go down.  

Neither wins!  Well Alt Nekima might win by technicality.  If you go look at her page over in the masters section, she's got yet another piece of art.  It's based on the alt Nekima art but its very much a different pose.

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Yeah I don't even care that lilith is gone remotely. I always thought nekima was far more interesting and I have 3 copies of her original sculpt. I do wish i had could still mess around with collodi though.  Really I personally don't even care , it's just I paid good money to have them painted professionally and I Didn't really switch up crews much . So lynch and collodi being gone, kind of effected me more so that it would other people, like 2/3 of the crews I would play pretty much aren't available to me.  Even though I own every resser and neverborn model available .

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I've been a very casual player of 2E, and the two masters I own are Lilith and Lynch.  Suddenly I became a Neverborn player with no master.  I haven't given up on Malifaux, but I am not happy with Wyrd's decision to effectively invalidate previous player purchases.  Telling someone to just swap Nekima in for Lilith is BS because my Lilith lists didn't use Nephilim outside of Terror Tots.  I played Lillith with Waldgeists, Barbaros, Graves, Illuminated, Stitched, etc.  I'm hoping the half bloods (2e starter set) aren't complete crap so I at least have the start of a Neverborn force.  I'm picking up some Zoraida and some swamp fiends now, but I'm very salty about the shake up in 3E.  I don't see how the changes benefit me as a player.   

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1 hour ago, secret apprentice said:

I've been a very casual player of 2E, and the two masters I own are Lilith and Lynch.  Suddenly I became a Neverborn player with no master.  I haven't given up on Malifaux, but I am not happy with Wyrd's decision to effectively invalidate previous player purchases.  Telling someone to just swap Nekima in for Lilith is BS because my Lilith lists didn't use Nephilim outside of Terror Tots.  I played Lillith with Waldgeists, Barbaros, Graves, Illuminated, Stitched, etc.  I'm hoping the half bloods (2e starter set) aren't complete crap so I at least have the start of a Neverborn force.  I'm picking up some Zoraida and some swamp fiends now, but I'm very salty about the shake up in 3E.  I don't see how the changes benefit me as a player.   

Well, if you don't mind bluntness, the changes weren't made to benefit you, specifically, as a player.

It's basically the gaming equivalent of "We're building a public library/airport, and your house is located on the prime spot for it.  The city planners discussed the alternatives, and this is the plan they had the funding for."

You've got Illuminated in your list, and from I remember of various discussions, they illustrate part of the problem that was being addressed.

Illuminated in M2E were these pretty good, mostly independent models that could sort of just run off in pairs; and they really didn't depend on the rest of the crew for anything in specific.  In M3E, they've basically been redesigned so that if you tried to do that without more Honeypot-themed models in the crew, they run out of Brilliance and half their abilities turn off.

Because unfortunately, the positive change of "Make keyword models work well with each other" has the less positive requirement of "Keyword models now depend on each other to work well."

Which means that the bad news is that your Lilith crew, even if the Honeypot-themed models didn't change faction, no longer works as well as it used to.

--

You're expressing that you're feeling salty about the changes.  At the risk of sounding like a pompous braggart...

I've got pretty good sized Arcanist, Guild, Neverborn and Ten Thunders collections (after the faction changes).  

For DMH models, I own Collodi, Nicodem ("Sorry for the delay" present from the TTB kickstarter), Lillith, Ryle, and Ramos (bought with Mei Feng to start my Arcanist collection).  The only DMH model I don't own is the Electrical Creation, because I refused to buy a model (that I didn't like the physical design of) which was basically summoned to blow up.  $11.95 to declare an action:blast.  

My Outcast leaders went from Misaki and the Viktorias to the Viktorias and about five Henchmen, with what's now a pretty bizarre collection of ex-M2E Mercenary models.  

I'm also one of the players whose collection is impacted by the Rare limit caps.  I've got two fluorescent green Teddy models to match a fluorescent green Pandora box.  I converted extra Illuminated out of the purple plastic Lynch box and the TTB figure box.  I think I have a dozen of the small mechanical arachnids, ...  I'm sure you get the idea.

As I wrote above, the downside for a player with an existing collection is that your existing models are now probably designed to work with models that you weren't using them with, if you weren't sticking to "theme".  Find an M2E Arcanist player, and if they don't have Howard Langston or Miss Step yet then they're just were probably just waiting for the next holiday sale.  Howard Langston w/ Imbued Energies would show up everywhere.  Now he works better with his Unionized buddies.

---

For the most part, the changes were made to benefit new players, and secondarily provide opportunities for players as they reorganize their existing collections.  If you look at each of the factions as a collection of allied keywords, each of the keywords are probably in a better place than they were in 2nd edition.  But to get to that better place, you're going to have to be willing to reorganize your collection.

Someone wanted to know how the game played, so I got out Spawn Mother, some Sillurids, and Gupps, against a similar sized small crew.  "This model does this, it feeds into the thing that that other model with the same keyword does."  

Yeah, this doesn't change the fact that they built an airport where your house used to be, metaphorically speaking.  But they really needed the airport, and it couldn't get built without knocking houses down.

 

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On 8/7/2019 at 6:36 AM, ooshawn said:

Yeah I don't even care that lilith is gone remotely. I always thought nekima was far more interesting and I have 3 copies of her original sculpt. I do wish i had could still mess around with collodi though.  Really I personally don't even care , it's just I paid good money to have them painted professionally and I Didn't really switch up crews much . So lynch and collodi being gone, kind of effected me more so that it would other people, like 2/3 of the crews I would play pretty much aren't available to me.  Even though I own every resser and neverborn model available .

Well, you can still count on a) casual games to be played with DMH  and b) local TO allowing DMH. 

A lot of people were hit by the changes/removal of mercenaries but it was all done for balance and the health of the game. Basically you could either keep it up as it was and the game would be dead in a year or make a small revolution, have some ricochets hit some people but have a high chance for stability for the next few years.

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5 hours ago, secret apprentice said:

I've been a very casual player of 2E, and the two masters I own are Lilith and Lynch.  Suddenly I became a Neverborn player with no master.  I haven't given up on Malifaux, but I am not happy with Wyrd's decision to effectively invalidate previous player purchases.  Telling someone to just swap Nekima in for Lilith is BS because my Lilith lists didn't use Nephilim outside of Terror Tots.  I played Lillith with Waldgeists, Barbaros, Graves, Illuminated, Stitched, etc.  I'm hoping the half bloods (2e starter set) aren't complete crap so I at least have the start of a Neverborn force.  I'm picking up some Zoraida and some swamp fiends now, but I'm very salty about the shake up in 3E.  I don't see how the changes benefit me as a player.   

This brings up an interesting point.  Malifaux is a very thematic game, always has been, right down to the mechanics of cheating fate and using soulstones to boost your effectiveness, but a lot of people played M2E (I don't have enough M1/1.5 experience to comment on that) in unthematic ways (like your Lilith crew using a selection of models that aren't really tied together other than by faction, or every Guild crew including Francisco, or Johan popping up everywhere whether there was a sensible theme reason to or not).  What the M3E changes have done is make theme much more central to crew selection, which has increased the variety of crews that actually see play, and made life easier for new players.

 

Some old players were harder hit than others, but the overall effect is probably better for the longevity of the game.  It is a shame that Graves and Tannen didn't keep their Nephilim/Woe Keywords though, even if they have sided with Lynch/Huggy in the background!

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to be fair I love the direction the game is going and I love all these ideas. I'm more excited about 3e than I ever was was 2nd. Honestly  my only complaint is with the way tournaments are setup you have to pick and choose this and that it basically limits my creativity. Why can't I play Jakob one round and play collodi the next and then Pandora after. Oh, rules. Cool 

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5 hours ago, solkan said:

Well, if you don't mind bluntness, the changes weren't made to benefit you, specifically, as a player.

It's basically the gaming equivalent of "We're building a public library/airport, and your house is located on the prime spot for it.  The city planners discussed the alternatives, and this is the plan they had the funding for."

You've got Illuminated in your list, and from I remember of various discussions, they illustrate part of the problem that was being addressed.

Illuminated in M2E were these pretty good, mostly independent models that could sort of just run off in pairs; and they really didn't depend on the rest of the crew for anything in specific.  In M3E, they've basically been redesigned so that if you tried to do that without more Honeypot-themed models in the crew, they run out of Brilliance and half their abilities turn off.

Because unfortunately, the positive change of "Make keyword models work well with each other" has the less positive requirement of "Keyword models now depend on each other to work well."

Which means that the bad news is that your Lilith crew, even if the Honeypot-themed models didn't change faction, no longer works as well as it used to.

--

You're expressing that you're feeling salty about the changes.  At the risk of sounding like a pompous braggart...

I've got pretty good sized Arcanist, Guild, Neverborn and Ten Thunders collections (after the faction changes).  

For DMH models, I own Collodi, Nicodem ("Sorry for the delay" present from the TTB kickstarter), Lillith, Ryle, and Ramos (bought with Mei Feng to start my Arcanist collection).  The only DMH model I don't own is the Electrical Creation, because I refused to buy a model (that I didn't like the physical design of) which was basically summoned to blow up.  $11.95 to declare an action:blast.  

My Outcast leaders went from Misaki and the Viktorias to the Viktorias and about five Henchmen, with what's now a pretty bizarre collection of ex-M2E Mercenary models.  

I'm also one of the players whose collection is impacted by the Rare limit caps.  I've got two fluorescent green Teddy models to match a fluorescent green Pandora box.  I converted extra Illuminated out of the purple plastic Lynch box and the TTB figure box.  I think I have a dozen of the small mechanical arachnids, ...  I'm sure you get the idea.

As I wrote above, the downside for a player with an existing collection is that your existing models are now probably designed to work with models that you weren't using them with, if you weren't sticking to "theme".  Find an M2E Arcanist player, and if they don't have Howard Langston or Miss Step yet then they're just were probably just waiting for the next holiday sale.  Howard Langston w/ Imbued Energies would show up everywhere.  Now he works better with his Unionized buddies.

---

For the most part, the changes were made to benefit new players, and secondarily provide opportunities for players as they reorganize their existing collections.  If you look at each of the factions as a collection of allied keywords, each of the keywords are probably in a better place than they were in 2nd edition.  But to get to that better place, you're going to have to be willing to reorganize your collection.

Someone wanted to know how the game played, so I got out Spawn Mother, some Sillurids, and Gupps, against a similar sized small crew.  "This model does this, it feeds into the thing that that other model with the same keyword does."  

Yeah, this doesn't change the fact that they built an airport where your house used to be, metaphorically speaking.  But they really needed the airport, and it couldn't get built without knocking houses down.

 

This post actually changed my whole mood in regard to this matter. I'm glad you took the time to write this out and  help me understand my complaints were valid, yet childish. Thank you. Even though I think you were responding to another person .

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44 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

to be fair I love the direction the game is going and I love all these ideas. I'm more excited about 3e than I ever was was 2nd. Honestly  my only complaint is with the way tournaments are setup you have to pick and choose this and that it basically limits my creativity. Why can't I play Jakob one round and play collodi the next and then Pandora after. Oh, rules. Cool 

You can still switch Masters between games in tournaments, just not factions (usually).  So, if DMH is allowed, there would be no problem starting Pandora for Game 1, switching to Collodi for game 2, and then back to Pandora for the third if that's what you wanted.

 

You just can't have Lynch in the mix unless the TO runs a non-fixed faction event, which is entirely at their discretion.

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On 8/8/2019 at 9:08 AM, solkan said:

Yeah, this doesn't change the fact that they built an airport where your house used to be, metaphorically speaking.  But they really needed the airport, and it couldn't get built without knocking houses down.

I get what you're trying to say but

1) Killing off Masters wasn't needed. They say that it's because of story reasons but you can still have absolutely idiotic combinations of models that make zero story sense. Also, many other games have characters die in the fluff yet stay in the game for "historical" scenarios. Heck, you couldn't play any historical games if you insisted that people should be alive in order to appear in a game. Almost no models were changed mechanically due to changes in story other than killing off a somewhat random set of characters.

(I can't in fact off-hand think of a single story-induced mechanical change but certainly there must be some?)

2) Some keywords are very limiting and absolutely require the synergy but many are completely independent and in fact compete for resources. It's mostly the +1 Cost that makes cheap models unplayable OOK but there are already several expensive models that are beginning to look like staples in many lists with various Masters.

I own something like 30 painted Guild models yet cannot make a competitive force out of them. Tough luck. The same is basically true of my Ressers and my Arcanists though there I at least have one Master each which I can kinda sorta play in a competitive setting. Of course due to how things work they are a no-go for tournaments. My Neverborn were shrunk from four Masters to two.

Luckily I own almost the whole Gremlin faction so at least there I have options still.

But this new "airport" killed something like a 100 models from me. I could buy a ton more models to make stuff viable again but in a couple of years Wyrd might decide to kill off a couple more Masters so I really don't feel like it. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, and so on. Sticking to a single Faction from now on and I very much suggest this strategy to everyone else as well.

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45 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Almost no models were changed mechanically due to changes in story other than killing off a somewhat random set of characters.

(I can't in fact off-hand think of a single story-induced mechanical change but certainly there must be some?)

Not sure what you mean by mechanically changed, and what it'd entail.

One example of a model that was fundamentally changed in how it works, based completely on the storyline, is Barbaros. You could probably say the same for Lynch and McCabe, though those might be more a rejiggering of Crew allotments.

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33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

(I can't in fact off-hand think of a single story-induced mechanical change but certainly there must be some?)

Characters promoted to Henchman and Master, some of the model faction changes I would say are story based, although its hard to know which came first, the story or the decision to change the character... 

Its hard to work out what "mechanical " changes are story induced, and what are just edition changes.

(For example The 1st edition Peacekeeper used to have experimental protocols which meant that if it flipped a 4 or lower, it seized up. Hoffman then arrived and had a special rule to allow you to ignore abilities on constructs you controlled if you wanted to, and you almost only saw Peacekeepers in Hoffman lists. Now in the change to second edition, lots of the rules like experimental protocols were removed as adding unnessacary complications, but also Hoffman had been working woth so many and fixing them, they were no longer experimental.

Was this just a victim of the edition change, or is it story based? Who knows. )

VonSchill has gained a mechanical arm, following the Nytheria campaign

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Von Schill is a good example, I think!

Guild Ball has a ton of models with very different "veteran" versions of characters (and even third, "seasoned", versions in some cases) whether representing a character mutating to a giant hulk due to chemicals, sobering up from deep alcoholism, finding religion, or even being blinded and crippled. They also retain the old versions so you can choose which ones you play but the story has far more effect on characters than in Malifaux whose characters are mostly very static except for now dying off. Von Schill as a happy exception, though.

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4 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I get what you're trying to say but

1) Killing off Masters wasn't needed. They say that it's because of story reasons but you can still have absolutely idiotic combinations of models that make zero story sense. Also, many other games have characters die in the fluff yet stay in the game for "historical" scenarios. Heck, you couldn't play any historical games if you insisted that people should be alive in order to appear in a game. Almost no models were changed mechanically due to changes in story other than killing off a somewhat random set of characters.

(I can't in fact off-hand think of a single story-induced mechanical change but certainly there must be some?)

2) Some keywords are very limiting and absolutely require the synergy but many are completely independent and in fact compete for resources. It's mostly the +1 Cost that makes cheap models unplayable OOK but there are already several expensive models that are beginning to look like staples in many lists with various Masters.

I own something like 30 painted Guild models yet cannot make a competitive force out of them. Tough luck. The same is basically true of my Ressers and my Arcanists though there I at least have one Master each which I can kinda sorta play in a competitive setting. Of course due to how things work they are a no-go for tournaments. My Neverborn were shrunk from four Masters to two.

Luckily I own almost the whole Gremlin faction so at least there I have options still.

But this new "airport" killed something like a 100 models from me. I could buy a ton more models to make stuff viable again but in a couple of years Wyrd might decide to kill off a couple more Masters so I really don't feel like it. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, and so on. Sticking to a single Faction from now on and I very much suggest this strategy to everyone else as well.

I'm not sure I understand what your complaint is. Dead Man's Hand exists so that you can still play the characters. It's only in official Wyrd events that they aren't accepted, and in tournaments it's up to the TO. They are playable for casual games. In other words they aren't completely removed from the game, which I hear other games have done when characters were removed from the story. The story of Malifaux is still ongoing, and these characters aren't completely non-existent any longer, so we could see them return (though unlikely). 

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8 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I own something like 30 painted Guild models yet cannot make a competitive force out of them.

I find that very weird. What keywords would throw off so many models? There are only what 7 keywords per faction? I'm just surprised that you would have so many models that you say are now unusable to make a force. Same with your other forces. Unless you only mained Nicodem, almost everything in Resurrs is still good and fairly straightforward to make crews with.

Sorry you're having such a hard time with the change though. I know it hasn't been easy for all players, but really no edition change, especially one as big as this, is going to be. I do think the game is much better overall this edition. I only really play Resurrs and I lost more models than I thought with mercs going away, but I think the game is better for it. Losing Nicodem hurt a little at first, but really I found his playstyle boring over time. I know that isn't the case for everyone, but now I find myself playing more masters and not just focusing on one or two. I even got Seamus on the table a couple of times and had fun. I would never have wanted to play Seamus or Kirai in 2nd and now they're an option. 

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30 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I find that very weird. What keywords would throw off so many models? There are only what 7 keywords per faction? I'm just surprised that you would have so many models that you say are now unusable to make a force. Same with your other forces. Unless you only mained Nicodem, almost everything in Resurrs is still good and fairly straightforward to make crews with.

I have Lady Justice and Sonnia but lack their Totems. I also have McMourning but he's no longer Guild. Now, were I to somehow obtain the Totems (or proxy them), I have a Guardian, a Lawyer, Francisco, three Death Marshals, The Judge, three Witchling Stalkers, one Witchling Handler, Samael, Brutal Effigy, and a number of Guardsmen. So sprinkled around various keywords with four or five models for the keywords that I have Masters for. I can technically build a list but I'm not at all excited to do so.

For Ressers I do have Molly, Nico, Seamus, and McMourning with Totems. But for other models I have three Necropunks, six Rotten Belles, three Crooligans, Rogue Necromancy, Sebastian, the Students, three Punk Zombies, three Canine Remains, Sybelle, two Dead Doxies, Mortimer, two Nurses, nine Mindless Zombies, and the Emissary. A much better situation but still, I have almost fifty models (granted, nine are Mindless Zombies) and I struggle making a competitive list. And I have won several tournaments with Ressers in previous editions (most lately with Seamus at the tail end of M3e).

For Neverborn I have Pandora (no Totem), Lynch, Lilith and Nekima (no Totems, no other Black Blood stuff), Collodi and a huge assortment of Puppets, Zoraida and her stuff (she I can use easily) and then three Insidious Madnesses, Teddy, Baby Kade, Candy, Emissary, Changelings - so again, I have one Master that I can play comfortably (Zoraida), one dead Master I could play comfortably and then an assortment of useless models.

All told, the edition change invalidated something close to a hundred models from me. I could buy another hundred to make them playable again (for a time) but I really don't feel like it. I have been buying Wyrd stuff since before Malifaux but after this one I don't plan on straying from Gremlins.

4 hours ago, Yew Arcane said:

I'm not sure I understand what your complaint is. Dead Man's Hand exists so that you can still play the characters. It's only in official Wyrd events that they aren't accepted, and in tournaments it's up to the TO. They are playable for casual games. In other words they aren't completely removed from the game, which I hear other games have done when characters were removed from the story. The story of Malifaux is still ongoing, and these characters aren't completely non-existent any longer, so we could see them return (though unlikely). 

Most TOs seem to be already excluding them. And in a year's time I predict that basically all will exclude them. That's how it goes.

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I have it on good authority (certainly not Kyle) that the Dead Man's Hand masters will be forming a new faction called the "Blackjack and Hookers," but basically they just pool their money to get a nice place Downtown. Hijinks ensue as they try to live under the same roof. Will Ryle (re)learn what it's like to be a real boy? Will Ramos win his PTA presidency bid? Can Lilith and Nicodem live with their burning romantic tension? And what about Collodi's quirky home business? Find out every Thursday at 9 (MCT), only on Guildvox Channel 4! 

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3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

All told, the edition change invalidated something close to a hundred models from me.

I'm not sure I'd agree they are 'invalidated'. They may not fit the crews you used to build or want to build and you might not have enough to field any of the new keywords fully. I also can't see you needing to buy another 100 models to make a field-able force - maybe to flesh out all keywords, but anyone trying to get all of a faction (or several like you) would have to buy a lot of models.

Some great crews can be created with some out of keyword models. Lady J in particular is a Master that doesn't really care all that much. Grab her totem somewhere online or proxy for now. She doesn't really rely on her Keyword to make a competitive force. I do understand your frustration, I do. You did have multiples of some models it sounds like, more than you can field now - I have I think 4 sculpts for Rogue Necros, including a custom cerebus/RN magnetized one. It sucks I can only take one now, but after looking at all the new stuff and the better rules I think it's still a win. I much prefer that I actually see and field different crews rather than the same 'good' models over and over with the Master just being swapped out. Makes it feel like a different game each time instead of the same time and again.  

I am in a little better boat as I focused mostly on Resurrs and have most of everything. I do have Marcus and some TT, but they never clicked with me. 

  • Agree 2

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