Marshalls viability

[le_wahou]

8 minutes ago, trikk said:

Unfortunately no.

"Choose a buried model" is not a special restriction. A special restriction is "Enemy only" "Non-master" "Other friendly model". They don't require you to do anything.  They just restrict when can you use this action.

"Choose a buried model" is a cost. Like "Discard a card". "Discard a power token". It's a requirement because you have to do it after you declare the trigger to resolve its effect.

The crow is not a "cost" because it's not in italics. Cost is a game term.

This is not clear. I have put a post in the rule section using Dashel totem as example. Both cost and special restrictions are in italic. There is no clear way to split them. They are resolved on different timing. I would tend to say that everything related to paying soulstone, health, discarding cards/upgrades is a cost, while target selection is a special restriction. But I understand your point of view.

[trikk]

 

Quote

In addition to costs, special restrictions are also written in italics and restrict the Trigger in some way, such as limiting the Trigger so that it may only be declared if the target is an enemy model.

Both Internal Affairs and Leeching Strength do not limit the targeting. They have additional effects that require you to do certain things (Choose model/marker) and that's why they are costs and not special restrictions.

[le_wahou]

22 minutes ago, trikk said:

 

Both Internal Affairs and Leeching Strength do not limit the targeting. They have additional effects that require you to do certain things (Choose model/marker) and that's why they are costs and not special restrictions.

Definition of special restriction in rulebook :

Quote

Special Restrictions

In addition to costs special restrictions are also written in italics and restrict the Trigger in some way such as limiting the Trigger so that it may only be declared if the target is an enemy model

Quote

 

Some Actions or Triggers have various special restrictions that limit the Action/Trigger so that it can only be declared in specific circumstances. These effects (written in italics) can be complicated, such as “This Action can only be taken while engaged.” Or they can be simple, such as “Enemy only.”

Listed below are the basic restrictions and how they work, which can be put together in any combination:

Enemy only: This effect can only be declared if the target of this Action and the Attacking model are considered enemies.

Friendly only: This effect can only be declared if the target of this Action is a friendly model.

X only: This effect can only be declared if the target of this Action has the X Characteristic, Keyword, or Name.

Other model only: This effect can only be declared if the target of this Action is a model other than the model declaring the effect

 

Special restrictions are not defined as only limit on targeting. There is a "such as" explaining that this is an example. This is still not clear for me. As said, I understand your point of view, but I am not yet convinced and both interpretations seems legit.

[trikk]

7 minutes ago, le_wahou said:

Definition of special restriction in rulebook :

Special restrictions are not defined as only limit on targeting. There is a "such as" explaining that this is an example. This is still not clear for me. As said, I understand your point of view, but I am not yet convinced and both interpretations seems legit.

I know it's `such as`, but 'Choose a buried model' is not a restriction. It's like 'discard a card'. Something you must do in order for the trigger to have it's effect. Also know that it doens't affect just Marshals but also a lot of Void models too.

 

If it wasn`t a cost, it wouldn't have to be in italics. If it would just be a restriction it would sound like "This trigger can only be declared if there is at least one model buried. Choose a buried enemy model... [...]"

[Da Git]

My 2c, from what I can gather. I sadly think it's a cost, not a restriction, with the following explanation. That said, I do think it SHOULD be a restriction.

I think costs include a verb, like a demand. Do X.

Whereas restrictions are a statement of fact. X must be true

For the Death Marshal's Trigger to be a restriction, it would need to be Buried models only.

[trikk]

1 hour ago, Da Git said:

My 2c, from what I can gather. I sadly think it's a cost, not a restriction, with the following explanation. That said, I do think it SHOULD be a restriction.

I think costs include a verb, like a demand. Do X.

Whereas restrictions are a statement of fact. X must be true

For the Death Marshal's Trigger to be a restriction, it would need to be Buried models only.

It can't be like that because you don't target with the trigger as targeting requires LoS. If it wasn't a restriction it should just be "Target suffers 1 wd and this model heals 1 wd". You're already buried if the marshal can use the trigger  

[LunarSol]

Marshals are in a pretty good place overall. 

GREAT

- Exorcists are one of the best models we have access to and are quite good at draining resources from the opponent while softening up targets.  I pretty much always include the pair.

- The Judge is pretty amazing.  Sometimes does more than J.  

 

GOOD 

- Death Marshals are fairly good runners.  The 0" on Pine Box basically kills it, but every once in a while it comes up.  Mostly though its just that they're durable and can tie up enemy models for the Exorcists to shoot repeatedly.

- Lone Marshal would have gotten his own place in the worthless pile if not for the startle change.  With it, he can do some pretty crazy tricks and solves some of the issues I was having with the crew's tendency to try and brick up.  I've gotten a few schemes by charging an opposing model to bounce to the other side and using the free disengage to get in position to drop as scheme marker.  That one change flipped him from one of the most easily nullified models in the faction to one of the most versatile.

 

SITUATIONAL

- I haven't had a lot of luck with Jury.  The whole bury aspect of the list just doesn't seem to work, so she mostly just threatens other crews that rely on bury.  I haven't played her recently though, so maybe I need to give her another shot.

- The Recruiter is.... lacking good targets.  I often take one just to give my Exorcists a second chance, but I'm not sure its worth it.  

- Domador is in a weird place.  It doesn't feel like it really fully works, but you can do some scary stuff to Rezzers sometimes so its worth having in the back pocket.

[trikk]

19 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

SITUATIONAL

- I haven't had a lot of luck with Jury.  The whole bury aspect of the list just doesn't seem to work, so she mostly just threatens other crews that rely on bury.  I haven't played her recently though, so maybe I need to give her another shot.

- The Recruiter is.... lacking good targets.  I often take one just to give my Exorcists a second chance, but I'm not sure its worth it.  

- Domador is in a weird place.  It doesn't feel like it really fully works, but you can do some scary stuff to Rezzers sometimes so its worth having in the back pocket.

Jury is an obey bot that denies trigger and messes with summoner supper hard. 

 

Domadors are autohealers and can shoot into engagement with no penalties.

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

 

- Exorcists are one of the best models we have access to and are quite good at draining resources from the opponent while softening up targets.  I pretty much always include the pair.

Huh, I have totally slept on these models (probably a holdover from last edition).  Mind saying more about it?  I found them rather sad tbh.

[Legislat]

The thing is you can't drop a scheme marker after declaring disangage unless your have don't mind me

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, Legislat said:

The thing is you can't drop a scheme marker after declaring disangage unless your have don't mind me

Yeah, gotta use the push on the melee if you want to pull that off.

[Morgan Vening]

5 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Huh, I have totally slept on these models (probably a holdover from last edition).  Mind saying more about it?  I found them rather sad tbh.

From what I can gather, they're kinda OK if you get nothing more from them, but their situational abilities are so diverse and so plentiful, they're usually going to hit on something.

Most crews will have some combination Terrifying, Manipulative, Incorporeal, or H2W. Ignoring that is always kinda nice. Also, ignoring Friendly Fire isn't anything to sneeze at against highly mobile crews.

And they're a decent counterpick against some crews. Any Undead, obviously. And any active Summoner needs to consider putting resources into a big Summon, because a high Crow brings that all down. And the ability to screw with Mei or Hoff, or any other crew that uses Corpse/Scrap, shouldn't be unconsidered.

Finally, a late turn False Accusation with Mental Trauma can be a good value. If they don't have the card, they're eating 3, and if they do, with all the "discard for effect" abilities, they probably kept it for a reason. Don't want to burn a high Crow, but an 8-9 of Crows cheated in, can make your opponent have a hard choice or eat the 3.

So, while a straight up comparison to DM's against a neutral target has them probably a little overpriced, if you're hitting on even a quarter of their situational abilities, they come off relatively favorable.

[Michael Curran]

Played a 50 SS match Guild: Keyword/Marshal  verses  Outcasts: keyword/Bandits

LJ bounded around the battle mat like a Killer Kittie all game taking out two gunslingers, Hans, & Sue.

My Judge, Domador, Scales & Stewie didn’t do too much this game, but my 3 DM’s I used as pure scheme runners and they performed admirably in that role.  At five soul stones they are decent.

I am going to try a ‘Lone Marshal’ for this scheme runner job next match I think.

I am loving the ebb & flow of Mali3e.  The game works really nice & makes for an enjoyable time.

Guild victory by the way - 4:2

[Cronex13]

I like what @LunarSol had to say about our models here, all seems pretty straightforward and I've definitely been underestimating our crew here. Am very excited to get back into the action with the Marshalls. 

[LunarSol]

On 8/8/2019 at 10:55 AM, Legislat said:

The thing is you can't drop a scheme marker after declaring disangage unless your have don't mind me

Ah, you’re right. I’ll just have to settle for being able to back off and shoot twice.  It’s still a massive difference in his effectiveness but good to remember. 

[Hot4Perdita]

I used a Marshall crew in my first 3e game tonight. They did pretty well. I went up against a December crew. We played Reckoning, as it was both of our first time at 3e and wanted a simplier strategy to help learn the new rules. The Marshall crew excelled at the killing game, and managed to accomplish the schemes as well. Final score was 7-4 in favor of Marshalls. I faced a December crew with Cassandra added in.

My crew was:

Lady J with lead coat

Scales

Judge

Guild Steward

Pale Rider

DM Recruiter

2 Death Marshalls

Lady J did what she does best and murdered very well. The lead coat saved her skin. The Leap action is phenomenal, though very resource intensive. The Pale rider was also very good, with his Ride with Me action being the best. The steward gave me a couple of heals and dropped a few schemes, I like him cause no one wants to kill him due to the damage they will take. The Death Marshalls are now very hardy and stand up well, great scheme runner and has a decent attack. Pine box never worked though. 

The Decmeber crew put up a fight. Those ice pillars are a pain in the butt! So annoying! 

My first 3e game was a ton of fun and great learning experience. It seems in this edition that every ability and action is very resource intensive, requiring a discard, TN, or some other resource to get it off, where many before in 2e were free. It adds a bit more strategy to resource management. Much fun though!

[LunarSol]

On 8/8/2019 at 10:38 AM, 4thstringer said:

Huh, I have totally slept on these models (probably a holdover from last edition).  Mind saying more about it?  I found them rather sad tbh.

I've just found them super useful.  Their damage isn't incredible, but ignoring Incorporeal, Hard to Wound, Terrifying, Manipulative and Friendly Fire makes them really consistent.  They often get some early shots in, then one of the J's rushes in to engage and they either get to finish it off to free a beat up to keep going or put in damage on whatever tried to take down my beater.

That said, they definitely get a lot better against undead.  Luckily, False Accusation is actually quite powerful as a free action in the crew in general.  Mental Trauma is nice, but just opening up something to Into Dust can burn the opponent's hand and stones a lot quicker than they'd like.  This is particularly true with 2 of them, as up to 4 of those shots gets people cheating some high cards against an ability that "only" makes them count as undead.

Don't discount Final Rest either.  It's a good size pulse that can really mess up certain crews and even when it doesn't the heal having essentially unlimited range can bring one of the J's back to a point where the opponent is just out of options to finish them off.

I generally run the pair along with a recruiter as a little module of its own.  Getting a couple DMs out of them almost makes the recruiter worth it.

[ShinChan]

8 hours ago, LunarSol said:

I've just found them super useful.  Their damage isn't incredible, but ignoring Incorporeal, Hard to Wound, Terrifying, Manipulative and Friendly Fire makes them really consistent.  They often get some early shots in, then one of the J's rushes in to engage and they either get to finish it off to free a beat up to keep going or put in damage on whatever tried to take down my beater.

That said, they definitely get a lot better against undead.  Luckily, False Accusation is actually quite powerful as a free action in the crew in general.  Mental Trauma is nice, but just opening up something to Into Dust can burn the opponent's hand and stones a lot quicker than they'd like.  This is particularly true with 2 of them, as up to 4 of those shots gets people cheating some high cards against an ability that "only" makes them count as undead.

Don't discount Final Rest either.  It's a good size pulse that can really mess up certain crews and even when it doesn't the heal having essentially unlimited range can bring one of the J's back to a point where the opponent is just out of options to finish them off.

I generally run the pair along with a recruiter as a little module of its own.  Getting a couple DMs out of them almost makes the recruiter worth it.

I usually run 1, and in very situational matches 2. I've tried to give him the upgrade to gain Run and Gun, and it's worth it in my opinion, but I can not always pays those 2ss extra leaving enough SS for Lady Justice.