Where’s the product?

[Hot4Perdita]

Thank you Wulfen, very well said.

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, Wulfen said:

The July releases cannot be blamed on Alliance or ACD. Period.

 

I thought they said something about shipping/import issues in the news about GenCon that caused the delay.

[Saduhem]

These comments really make it sound like Wyrd doesn't want to sell its own product while @Nathan Caroland sits on a pile of faction decks laughing at all the people that can't buy them. Whatever the issue was, what does it change? Things will get there when they get there. Pretending to be the CEO and asking for people to get fired is not going to expedite the process.

This isn't even a discussion anymore, it's just finding something to blame to feel better about the delay.

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, Saduhem said:

while @Nathan Caroland sits on a pile of faction decks laughing at all the people that can't buy them

Holy crap! Best Nightmare edition ever! Now who could it be in the game though? Mature Nephilim? Carver? 

But yes, I'm sure Wyrd is doing everything humanly possible to get product out as soon as possible. Bad stuff happens... 

[Wulfen]

5 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

I thought they said something about shipping/import issues in the news about GenCon that caused the delay.

That was for the GenCon pre-release stuff.

[Wulfen]

4 hours ago, Saduhem said:

These comments really make it sound like Wyrd doesn't want to sell its own product while @Nathan Caroland sits on a pile of faction decks laughing at all the people that can't buy them. Whatever the issue was, what does it change? Things will get there when they get there. Pretending to be the CEO and asking for people to get fired is not going to expedite the process.

This isn't even a discussion anymore, it's just finding something to blame to feel better about the delay.

No one is asking for job terminations. That's pretty absurd.

But pretending that this isn't a bad look doesn't help either. I can go to my LGS right now and buy new releases. Warmachine. Hordes. Infinity. Batman. Sigmar. 40K. Fallout. And some of those are just as niche as Malifaux.

[Saduhem]

1 hour ago, Wulfen said:

No one is asking for job terminations. That's pretty absurd.

But pretending that this isn't a bad look doesn't help either. I can go to my LGS right now and buy new releases. Warmachine. Hordes. Infinity. Batman. Sigmar. 40K. Fallout. And some of those are just as niche as Malifaux.

The product will get there when it does. So what is it exactly that you want?

[santaclaws01]

17 hours ago, explorator said:

New players (i.e. new to Malifaux) do not want to use proxies and download and printout cards.

Why are new players going to care about a product for updating peoples current collections?

6 hours ago, Wulfen said:

No one is asking for job terminations. That's pretty absurd.

Obviously you haven't seen previous threads on this where people were doing exactly that, including asking for Wyrd to fire their distributors. By some people in this thread until it was explained multiple times why that's not an option.

Hell, this thread started out with a complaint that Wyrd hasn't said anything about backordered rulebooks and faction packs when Wyrd has in fact talked about that and said the second print run was already on the way.

[trikk]

17 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Oh yeah, I forgot that Wyrd outsources their production to China. There is an easy solution to this problem. Manufacture your product in USA! Wyrd is a USA company, make it here! The whole purpose of the tariffs being imposed is to shift manufacturing back to the USA to restore those jobs lost to overseas. It is starting to work in some industries, hopefully it will in this case. I will gladly pay a few more dollars per model if it is made in my country and creating jobs. But I’ll leave it at that, as I’m not looking to get into a political speech or start any debates on here.

It's not going to be a few dollars. If it was a matter of a few percent, the potential delay wouldn't be worth the optimization.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Saduhem said:

The product will get there when it does. So what is it exactly that you want?

I would assume what is wanted is the product in store to buy. I would hope most people would realise that that is also what wyrd want. Bringing it as a problem to wyrds attention is helpful to wyrd I would assume, although they are all going to be busy the next couple of weeks so that might be no formal answer. That said, replying with information is also helpful as it certainly seems not everyone has seen all the wyrd communication on the issue. I hope the discussion can remain civil and useful to all participants. 

[explorator]

18 hours ago, Saduhem said:

I hoped these arguments where everyone is Wyrd’s CEO were done with.

I hoped these forums were a place for honest critism without wild accusations. Well, if frogs had pockets...they would carry pistols.

This is the 21st century; we can love a company, be critical of certain details of that company, and speak those critisisms without being "Wyrd's CEO". 

[explorator]

13 hours ago, Saduhem said:

These comments really make it sound like Wyrd doesn't want to sell its own product while @Nathan Caroland sits on a pile of faction decks laughing at all the people that can't buy them.

If Nathan stiffed the LGS's in order to look good at GenCon by having literal piles of product, that is an issue for me. Are there product shortages at GenCon this year? If (IF IF IF!) there is a product surplus at GenCon, and a product shortage in our LGS's, then asking why is absolutely warranted.

I get that GenCon is a massive cash cow for Wyrd; both onsite and online. I mean....Nathan COULD be sitting on a huge pile of faction decks at this very second, because he misjudged the market. Or not....I have no idea...but Malifaux gamers from my area are at GenCon this weekend, and I will be asking them about Wyrd's stock, just like I talk to local lgs owners and the distributor Wyrd uses in my region. 

How is complaining about missing out on new releases for your favorite game such a crime all of the sudden?  I am not just popping off so I can dunk on Wyrd.

[explorator]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why are new players going to care about a product for updating peoples current collections?

Some new players have models due to generosity within the community, i.e. giving or selling them discounted crews.

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, explorator said:

If Nathan stiffed the LGS's in order to look good at GenCon by having literal piles of product, that is an issue for me. Are there product shortages at GenCon this year? If (IF IF IF!) there is a product surplus at GenCon, and a product shortage in our LGS's, then asking why is absolutely warranted.

I would not be surprised to see gencon sell out of somethings. I also expect wyrd to have distributed gen con stock levels before release. 

I imagine that if they do have a stock surplus after gen con, then it will make it out to stores. It' like the restaurants from your delivery days. Gen con is their margin.

 In all scenario the best for the majority of the consumer base is to have a good gen con stock level. There may be a few individuals who do slightly worse. 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, explorator said:

If Nathan stiffed the LGS's in order to look good at GenCon by having literal piles of product, that is an issue for me. Are there product shortages at GenCon this year? If (IF IF IF!) there is a product surplus at GenCon, and a product shortage in our LGS's, then asking why is absolutely warranted.

Well, the rulebook is sold out on the website while none of the faction decks are, so take that as you will.

[theamazingmrg]

29 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Well, the rulebook is sold out on the website while none of the faction decks are, so take that as you will.

You mean a book is sold out when they specifically told us in an update they'd had delays with books being printed?  Colour me surprised 😮

[Hot4Perdita]

1 hour ago, theamazingmrg said:

You mean a book is sold out when they specifically told us in an update they'd had delays with books being printed?  Colour me surprised 😮

Where are these updates you refer to? On this forum or their website? I must have overlooked it.

[theamazingmrg]

34 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Where are these updates you refer to? On this forum or their website? I must have overlooked it.

First there was a big paragraph about it here:

 

Then they confirm further delays with the Faction Books here (it doesn't take much to link the two posts to the same issues and assume the second printing is going to be similarly affected):

 

[amanwing]

come on guys. At least they provided all the cards for free online. So you can play if you want. The product is delayed. Nothing will change that.

 

[tmod]

On 8/1/2019 at 8:15 PM, Hot4Perdita said:

Well, after the botched rollout in June, looks like none of the retailers have any of the July releases yet, and today is August 1. Also, still no word on backordered rulebooks and faction packs. What the heck is going on Wyrd? 

Sorry for long post, but thought I'd answer all (or at least most) claims in one post rather than many.. 

What botched rollout? My local games store have a turnaround time of about three months for Wyrd, and even I got the Yuoko box come early July. I just ordered it off a regular UK game store on the day of release. As have been stated multiple times, Wyrd didn't cock up, some distributors did (in a major way!), and most did to some extent (by underestimating demand and preordering too few units). Alliance lying about this to make Wyrd seem bad was a real douchebag move, and if possible they should've been boycotted. Unfortunately that's not feasible due to the way the distribution chain works...

On 8/2/2019 at 3:59 AM, Hot4Perdita said:

What is Covenant Cast?  A podcast or something? I’ll give it a look if I can. Not sure how it all works, but it makes a company look bad if their stuff is late, no matter who’s fault it is. You never see GW stuff not show up on time. If it did, they would drop that distributor like a bad habit. They have strict rules for their distribution and retailers.

Yes you do. Have you heard about contrast paints? Released in June, and GW HUGELY underestimated the demand. Some 18ml pots have been listed on eBay for $100...  And GW is in a totally different situation; they control all aspects of the chain themselves, except production of paints and some tools... They have their own distribution chain literally everywhere, and can thus easily shift product between stores and markets. Yet you could try to get hold of a jar of black or white contrast paint during July in most parts of the world...

Also, GW solves a lot of their distribution issues by having literally almost everything be in limited supply, so when it's out it's out. A lot of their products are ONLY available online or in certain stores (generally GW branded stores), sometimes only as an in-store order format.

Wyrd is NOT operating like that, and I for one am very grateful...

On 8/2/2019 at 5:54 AM, explorator said:

The M3e rollout has been a hot mess from the jump. Now that everyone is at GenCon, we won't hear a word for awhile. Unfortunately, no one at Wyrd seems at all concerned about the many roadblocks standing beteeen their customers and their product. Any criticism of Wyrd's business practices is seen as a personal attack on "the family", and those who critique Wyrd are "losers" "angry", and are told if they don't like it, "find another game to play".

On the contrary. The announcement last year that M3e was coming was a bit sub par due to being rushed due to a leak, but the release itself has been pretty impressive. Most of the world seemed to get it's stuff on the date of release, which is no small feat. Some distributors screwed up, and demand was much better than anyone suspected (several month's worth sold in a week), but that doesn't detract from the release itself. I do have a hunch that the announcement last year of M3e have caused sales of M2e to drop artificially, hence part of the reason for the underestimated demand (and that's on Wyrd, not distributors), but given the news had been leaked I don't know how Wyrd should've handled it better...

And Wyrd have seemed very concerned with setting the record straight, to the point people have accused Nathan Caroland of outright lies when his version of events have contradicted Alliance's. They've manufactured plastic in China since M1e, and the July shipment (and some restock unless I'm mistaken) was one the first shipment that has ever been locked up in customs. They have been upfront with this, and when it's a first in so many years I kinda wondered how they could've foreseen this.

On 8/2/2019 at 6:59 AM, Hot4Perdita said:

Since when do distributors dictate demand? Distributors are nothing more than a middle man to transfer a company’s product from manufacture to retailer. Manufacturers do their own analysis to determine demand to know how much product to produce. All distributors do is hold that product in warehouse to ship it out to retailers when they order it. They are nothing more than middle men. If there is a product shortage, that is on Wyrd for not analyzing the market properly. Companies will never mass produce a product without market research and knowing how many they will most likely sell. Businesses would never survive that way.

 So, that addresses the shortage of the first wave June products; now, how do we explain the absence of July release products? No one has received any of those at all yet, so can’t blame them on being sold out.

Distributors are literally the ones ordering product from Wyrd, so if they refuse to order (enough) product they can literally dictate how much get through to the lgs and the customer. That's just how the system works (or how it doesn't work!).

The July releases have been delayed in customs, so no, that's not on the distributors. Haven't heard anyone claiming it is either, though...

On 8/2/2019 at 4:04 PM, explorator said:

It is absolutley fair to compare companies that share market space. RC cola will never compete with Coke, but both can be judged in a side-by-side taste test. GW sets the standard in virtually every aspect of miniature design, production, marketing, and merchandising.

Malifaux is a niche game in a niche market; long-term sustainablity is dependent on superior rules (NAILED IT!), and basic levels of product management; from design to distribution.  Underdogs have to work HARDER and SMARTER to get results similar to companies that dominate the marketplace. Wyrd obviously put untold hours of work into making M3e a great game, unfortunatley the company fell down on launch.

Forget thought experiments...I sold high-end bread and pastries for years as a route driver for a national company. Our product was top rate, on shelves in stores, and sold well. 80% of my business came from grocery stores and 20% from restaurants. A coworker asked why I spent so much time supporting the restaurants when they only made up 20% of the business on my route; I told him, that 20% is MY MARGIN. I had to shower those little shops with my time and effort if I wanted to make money. I had to work HARDER and SMARTER to keep up with the major players, who would gobble up my shelf space in a SECOND if I let up one bit.

Mailfaux is by far the best, and my favorite skirmish game ever, but Wyrd is a frustrating company to appreciate. I have players in my area who are waiting for M3e product, but are now drooling over the new Marvel hero skirmish game, and Warcry is about to make a big splash as well. Wyrd is going to have to do better if they want to be sustainable. 

Is it possible that Wyrd held product back for GenCon? 

Compare the flavour all you like; I do all the time. Wyrd's superior game design and miniature sculpts are what caused me to leave GW behind after twenty years (on a tangent I'd grant that some of GWs newer plastic are amazing, but too many are technically brilliant and low on detail and with poor aesthetic. I love how they make large and complicated models seem to float because a little piece seemingly randomly touching the ground. That's neat and impressive, but not necessarily the same as a realistic, detailed or nice looking miniature.).

But you're not comparing the flavour here. You are criticising RC Cola for having a smaller store presence, and lower marketing budget. That's not a fair comparison anymore...

It's not plausible they held back for GenCon, as they have stated that some of the stuff on sale at GenCon will not be delivered until after the new shipments are in. It might be possible some stuff is available at GenCon that is not in your store, but then it's probably not unavailable due to lack of product, but generally available stuff that your store or distributor dropped the ball on.

Note that there ARE some product available at GenCon/webshop that are not available to stores for quite some time. That's pre-release of stuff that's not scheduled to be released until later, and that's normal. This stuff will ho back to being unavailable even from Wyrd until general release later in the fall/winter.

I'll also address the notion that Wyrd should've order product way in excess of expected demand to ensure enough was available. Ever heard of Ninja Division/Soda Pop Miniatures? Apparently, what got them in their current shitty situation was that they overestimated the demand for Ninja All Stars, and have struggled to pay for storing excess inventory ever since. When their leading game designer got a heart attack (I think), they got themselves in a quagmire they couldn't get out of, with money budgeted for manufacturing being spent on warehousing until they where practically bankrupt. Of course, they did a lot of damage to their brand by not being up front about their problems (many would say they where outright lying), but overestimating demand have almost destroyed what was a very solid company with a popular product coming of a very successful kickstarter.

On 8/2/2019 at 6:15 PM, explorator said:

New players (i.e. new to Malifaux) do not want to use proxies and download and printout cards. Some existing players are waiting for new cards to play as well. I understand gaming is a tricky business, but it is not reasonable to hold Wyrd unaccountable.  I like Wyrd. But, if I get a bad dish at me favorite restaurant, I SAY SOMETHING! Not because I am mad, or a hater, but because I want the place I love to eat and recommend to others, to be as good as I know it can be.

None of the previous tariff's affected gaming, and those that do are not in place until September. I would expect most miniature companies will move heaven and earth to get product shipped out of China before that deadline.

Does GW have a distinct distribution chain in the U.S. ? I think my lgs gets GW product from the same distributor as every other game product. They do occasionally get promo copies through direct mail, but actual stock comes in on the truck.

If you get a bad dish at a restaurant you should be vocal about it. If you get a Wyrd model whith broken bits you should let them know. There have been cock ups in the past, and generally Wyrd have been pretty good at rectifying them. However, this is more akin to a restaurant being out of fish because the local fisheries have gone on a strike. Or that they are out of Pineapple because the supplier's warehouse burned down. Put the blame where it's supposed to be...

Unless something have changed these last few years GW do indeed have their own distribution network in the US. Doesn't mean they can't or won't sell through other companies if available though.

On 8/2/2019 at 6:39 PM, Hot4Perdita said:

Oh yeah, I forgot that Wyrd outsources their production to China. There is an easy solution to this problem. Manufacture your product in USA! Wyrd is a USA company, make it here! The whole purpose of the tariffs being imposed is to shift manufacturing back to the USA to restore those jobs lost to overseas. It is starting to work in some industries, hopefully it will in this case. I will gladly pay a few more dollars per model if it is made in my country and creating jobs. But I’ll leave it at that, as I’m not looking to get into a political speech or start any debates on here.

 

Also, in an earlier post I mentioned GW as an example. Many of you said that is not a fair comparison. I play a few other games beside 40k from other manufacturers. Warlord, Fantasy Flight, etc. They do not seem to experience these issues either. I think Warlord makes all their product at home in the UK, not sure where Fantasy Flight is based or makes theirs.

It wouldn't be a few dollars, but quite a lot of dollars. Almost no one makes injection moulded HIPS plastic in the US. That's why almost everyone manufactures their stuff in China. FFG makes their stuff in China, Reaper makes their plastic in China, and pretty much all board game plastic components are made in China. The start up costs are immense, and it's completely unrealistic for a company of Wyrd's size to get involved in that industry. As far as I know, GW is the only major manufacturer of miniatures that makes HIPS miniatures in Europe/US, and they transitioned from metal to all plastic over a 25-30 year period with continual investments. In the last few years Wyrd have returned to making some select models in resin/metal. Those can be made locally (and probably are), and are more cost effective for small projects with shorter turnaround times.

You may be willing to pay the extra price (even if significantly higher than a few dollars. Or would you though? Pay up, say, $150 for a crew box? Just because it was manufactured in the US? Effectively and 200% tax? I don't have any real numbers, so I don't know exactly how much, but I got the impression most people think Wyrd's excellent plastic crack is expensive enough as it is...), but are you sure everyone would? Europe is a pretty significant market for Wyrd (well, at least UK), and how much extra do you think UK wargamers would pay for knowing that the minis they bought had created one or two extra jobs in the US? Also, I was pretty sure the embargo was an attempt to pressure China to adopt American intellectual property laws and import more soy beans, not to stimulate US companies to start inefficient and unprofitable manufacturing in the US. I could go further on this, as a Political Economist by educating I have a few thoughts on the issue, but I don't think it's a healthy topic to delve deeper into on a war game forum. PM me if you want my thoughts...

There. That was pretty long, and I hope I didn't come off as hostile. I do sympathise, really I do, but it does get tiresome to have the same accusations repeated ad nauseum when they miss the point: Wyrd have screwed up a lot of times over the past decade, but this was not one of them. This was them being screwed by their distributors and government agencies (who where probably just doing their job). Shit happens sometimes, and sometimes there is little to be done. I'm sure we'd all be worse off if Wyrd dropped everything to try to fix an unfixable issue instead of focusing on the one, big bread-winning event of the Wyrd year, GenCon. If they don't do well on GenCon, they loose a significant part of their annual revenue, and that means less money for product development, manufacturing, customer support, etc, during the rest of the year...

[Hot4Perdita]

1 hour ago, theamazingmrg said:

First there was a big paragraph about it here:

 

Then they confirm further delays with the Faction Books here (it doesn't take much to link the two posts to the same issues and assume the second printing is going to be similarly affected):

 

Thanks, no wonder I couldn’t find it. I was combing through the Malifaux Discussion section trying to find it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Umm and it is not a solution to just move production here. First of all the cost increase even if you could would be WAY more than a couple dollars a mini, and even if the cost could be eaten by you it wouldn’t be eatten by the majority of their customers.

Second, if the manufacturers did move from China they would just move elsewhere in the world, not here. You can already see that happening, because the countries like Vietnam and suchlike are picking up the manufacturing China is losing. If you actually look into the data we’re still losing manufacturing, and those industries that are very slightly expanding it would make more sense to just give them subsidies to work for nothing than the costs that are being born out to keep and create those industries.

And lastly, and even more importantly, there aren’t enough experts in the US with the experience, know how, and skills to actually startup manufacture on the scale and quality they have in China. Look into it. Most interviews with manufacturers who get asked why they don’t move here over and over say there just isn’t the expertise here. You can’t create an entire manufacturing based skilled workforce overnight or even in a few years. It would take a generation+ to do it.

The expertise, skilled labor force, supply chains, logistics, and transportation hubs do not exist for the manufacturing of miniatures like Wyrd in the scale they would need. And what does exist is already fulfilling their intended purpose.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Where are these updates you refer to? On this forum or their website? I must have overlooked it.

I strongly suggest you look at the wyrd announcement section of this forum. Coming to complain about their communication is fine, but the first section of this forum is one of their main communication tools, and so not reading it and then complaining you don't know what is happening does make it look like you haven't put any effort to find out yourself. It probably won't answer all your complaints, but it might have answered some in advance of you having then. 

[Hot4Perdita]

29 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Umm and it is not a solution to just move production here. First of all the cost increase even if you could would be WAY more than a couple dollars a mini, and even if the cost could be eaten by you it wouldn’t be eatten by the majority of their customers.

Second, if the manufacturers did move from China they would just move elsewhere in the world, not here. You can already see that happening, because the countries like Vietnam and suchlike are picking up the manufacturing China is losing. If you actually look into the data we’re still losing manufacturing, and those industries that are very slightly expanding it would make more sense to just give them subsidies to work for nothing than the costs that are being born out to keep and create those industries.

And lastly, and even more importantly, there aren’t enough experts in the US with the experience, know how, and skills to actually startup manufacture on the scale and quality they have in China. Look into it. Most interviews with manufacturers who get asked why they don’t move here over and over say there just isn’t the expertise here. You can’t create an entire manufacturing based skilled workforce overnight or even in a few years. It would take a generation+ to do it.

The expertise, skilled labor force, supply chains, logistics, and transportation hubs do not exist for the manufacturing of miniatures like Wyrd in the scale they would need. And what does exist is already fulfilling their intended purpose.

So you’re saying there is no longer any plastic injection molding manufacturing technology left in the USA, period? 

I also build scale model aircraft, and yes, the majority of the molds are made overseas. But with the high price (relative to scale model aircraft, tanks, etc) of gaming models, it would think the margin would exist to manufacture them here. For example, a Tamiya 1/48 F-14 (arguably one the most superb kits in the world from arguably the best model manufacturer) has hundreds of parts, massive detail, and expensive R&D, and that kit retails for around $100 US. A lot of gaming model kits go for well more than that with less R&D, less parts, and way less plastic. 

But I will acknowledge and agree with you, sending manufacturing overseas is a unfortunate and grim dilemma we have in this global economy. I don’t see it stopping even with tariffs. Companies will find a way around it. I find it so hard to believe that we can’t manufacture goods in this country anymore for a competitive price. 

[Hot4Perdita]

6 minutes ago, Adran said:

I strongly suggest you look at the wyrd announcement section of this forum. Coming to complain about their communication is fine, but the first section of this forum is one of their main communication tools, and so not reading it and then complaining you don't know what is happening does make it look like you haven't put any effort to find out yourself. It probably won't answer all your complaints, but it might have answered some in advance of you having then. 

Was not intended as a complaint, was intended as a quest for information. I do not frequent forums much, I did not know of the announcement section. I posed the questions about the lack of product because my local store said they have no clue as to why the haven’t received product, and that Wyrd will not inform them of why. So I turned to here. I will look into the announcement section next time when and if there are more delays.