Teach me about Titania

[LexLock]

3 hours ago, AngelRogue said:

I would like to point out that the Fae are not actually slow. As much as people like to say they are slow, what they really mean is most of Fae's walking is average and that Titania herself can outpace them. In actuality, the slowest Fae are waldgeist with the walk 4. But if you walk and ambush, it becomes 7 inches. Ambush should be fairly easy to keep set up with markers. So then the "slowest" fae is slow at 5 inches of walk.  

Additionally, with placement of underbrush markers, you should be able to somewhat slow down your opponent, which makes sure that your Fae should still be able to be the first to or across the centerline, if you want to be.

5 move on a crew without much range or movement tricks is quite slow.

Underbrush markers can definitely slow your opponent way down, although there are decent odds your opponent brings something that ignores them pretty easily and riders can really hurt your chances of slowing down their important models.

[Ogid]

With "slow" the meaning is more they are lacking models with lot of movement shenanigans, not that they all have Mv3.

For example, Marcus/Nekima/Zoraida has a lot of models, with leaps, toss, fly with me, ambush, lairs and the like. The Dreamer has his spider subtheme and may summon models with the Wp duels anywhere. Those crews may dictate where the action happens and reposition their models quickly. Fae or Woe may park in the middle of the map and create a bubble the other player will want to avoid and maybe spread their models around a bit to cover more terrain; but they will struggle to win a race or reposition quickly.

As said above, the underbrushes will be a pain for some models, but expect marker removal or lot of unimpeded/flight/incorporeal/whatever.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I posted this in a Pandora thread (where people also don't like the 5-6 cost minions), but it applies to Bultungin as well:

Part of it is that 5-6 stone models are just not great in general.

People buy packs of 3 and hope to be able to take three of a model into a game, but really you're probably only going to ever take 0-2 of a model.

5-6 stone models just aren't great to spam IMO. They usually fill a niche and so you snag some as needed. Sorrows and Aversions definitely bring tools to the table (even if you just need a model that can bonus action stun, move, interact).

Even Stitched Together, arguably our best 5-6 stone minion, I rarely hire more than one of them.

So I think part of it is perspective. If you're expecting a minion you can load up on, 5-6 stone minions are going to disappoint. But they provide good action efficiency for cost, and usually come with a trick or two.

[Maniacal_cackle]

As for speed, I'm still learning about the crew (it may be my 4th crew), but if I was playing budget Titania I'd probably field something like:

• Titania/gorar
• Aeslin
• Hooded rider
• Rougarou
• Rougarou
• Bultungin
• 10 stones flex slots.

That crew is pretty darn fast, and it has some markers to work with as well. The Bultungin seems like a great fit for fitting in an extra few interact actions (and throwing out one more marker).

Not an optimised list (as I said, budget and only requires two purchases), but illustrative that they can be useful?

[Nagi21]

18 hours ago, Ogid said:

For the scheme ones both Waldgeist and Aeslin help quite a bit. Waldgeist may interact, ambush, interact; which gives 2 scheme markers sepparated by around 4''; a "into thorns" trigger may place a model there to score detonate (or a Killjoy Hook, Waldgeist Heave...). Aeslin have a "Draw Out Secret" trigger that may even be used versus allies; so it's also a way to easily stack markers if you don't think you could get the trigger versus an enemy.

Oh I'm not saying she can't make it happen, but your opponent needs to be leaving models in places where it can happen, and you need to be able to time it correctly and make sure your opponent doesn't have repositioning or marker removal either.  It's not bad, but it's definitely a lower third scheme for her.

[Ogid]

About the minions... there are great models in the 5-6 SS range; at 6SS models are usually very competent at what they do. They won't be able to stand a 10SS model on their own, but with the right support they function quite well. 

The 3 copy thing... I guess that's more a way to promote lists diversity, in general 1 or 2 models of one kind is the normal; but for some lists you may include 3.

For the best 6SS minion from the faction (Aversion, BBS, Gigant, Stitched and Waldgeist) I'd propose the BBS, stitched would be close tho. Stitcheds are good, but it's not worth OOK imo and they have weaknessess that can be taken advantage of. My bet for the best 6SS model of the faction is Iggy.

Nice list @Maniacal_cackle, let me suggest a name: "Faest and Furious" .

6 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Oh I'm not saying she can't make it happen, but your opponent needs to be leaving models in places where it can happen, and you need to be able to time it correctly and make sure your opponent doesn't have repositioning or marker removal either.  It's not bad, but it's definitely a lower third scheme for her.

The schemes that rely in an enemy in X position depends a lot on what the other player can do and his game plan. Considering the NVB masters, she is well suited for that kind of strategies if there isn't much denial/movement shenanigans in the other crew: Into thorns trigger is quite powerful reposition effect and the ability to double drop scheme or stone an scheme with an attack help a lot completing those. Plus she may have an staggered source with the the Waldgeists or the Emissary to make it saffer.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Haha, the faest and the furious it is.

Do people really rate Waldgeist that highly? It seems like a model that is relatively tanky, but you can mostly dance circles around. I can see it being good for zone controlling a turf war marker and the like?

What do people use them for? The scheme/ambush/scheme seems super narrow, since you usually need more flexibility in scheme placement. It is great on Harness and that is about it (now that Search is nerfed). Not to mention resource intensive- I can't imagine Titania is swimming in cards.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also would be curious about a Waldgeist heavy list to get a good feel for them.

I can see their use in a Zoraida crew (cards to spare, swamp eyes, enables ambush across the crew).

[goth]

Take with a grain of salt... 0-6 M3E player with maybe a 2-20 record in M2E... just my current feels after theorycrafting since the time of Titania’s box initially going on preorder in 2016...

First, Waldgeists are very simply worse than they were in M2E.  Accepting that...

You take them with Titania for the extra underbrush marker at the beginning of the game, which if you have two or three to place is meh but Aeslin and Titania get exponentially more dangerous with each Underbrush marker you add to that (I won’t take Aeslin at all in any crew unless I have 5+).  Before I go on I’ll say that if you are using Germinate with Titania or Aeslin you are downright wasting your AP; with a Waldgeist, throwing Germinate into range of either to be used offensively in a pinch when it’s needed is acceptable.  I think Gorar is for throwing Underbrush behind them for you to place enemies back toward your side of the board, but that’s another post.  Underbrush placed at beginning of game is used to block sight lines of a Perdita or Parker (Zoraida’s pleural LoS’?!) crew as you run upfield, or for decorating the area where you know your strat/scheme action is going to take place much more than it is for “slowing down” the opposing teams advance as I’ve always heard others say; it’s also great for assisting with scoring ‘Stake a Claim’ - however probably best for DENYING ‘Stake a Claim’ish schemes because of the place.

Waldgeists (hilarious, like you’d take two? but you get my point) effectively have regeneration.  Also armor.  Additionally who would focus down or waste cards on a Waldgeist or a Wicked Doll?  Consider a Waldgeist with two or three Wicked Dolls (12 or 15ss, obvz no upgrades) strat/scheming as a group... three or four activations and guaranteed a model (or three!) are Staggered (or Adversary Fae!).  This puts all Wicked Dolls on straightflip+straightdamage...  Stealth on the WDolls sitting behind your Waldgeist means your enemy will have to charge into underbrush with a Waldgeist to deny your scheme, which is perfect because I think Fae crews suck at reacting to well-oiled machines like Colette or Shenlong but are great at throwing wrenches into those crews plans mid-turn.  Penetrating Stench, Heave and Delay are random okay-cool-sure-dontmindifido triggers unless they are somehow synergistic with your crew.  Think of Tangling Roots like a 1.9” engagement range... using it like Aeslin uses it on the front lines is wishful thinking.  ...but consider activating Waldgeist last to get Ambush push backward to score Outflank with a WDoll behind it (next to your Power Ritual marker?).  Lastly, Waldgeists have unimpeded, it’s just not called that... and not being able to be moved by enemies?  Maybe they are a better center Turf War anchor than you think...

[goth]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also would be curious about a Waldgeist heavy list to get a good feel for them.

Based on the post above, this is what I would consider a “Waldgeist-heavy” list... meaning a list optimized to take advantage of the Waldgeist... two trees may be heavy enough to drag you under without positive results.

 

“Ent My Activation” (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 1
Leader:
  Titania
Totem(s):
  Gorar
Hires:
  Waldgeist
  Autumn Knight
  Wicked Doll
  Wicked Doll 2
  Wicked Doll 3
  Will o' the Wisp
  Mysterious Effigy
  Aeslin
  Killjoy
References:
  Blood Sacrifice

[LexLock]

Maybe their best use is providing nodes for a dual master Zoraida (if you're allowing dual master), just the fact they are an in keyword swampfiend for Titania gives her a leg up on other masters for Zoraida synergy (but no WP duel synergy like dreamer).

[Ogid]

A list with 3 Waldgeist would be a very niche one; but I could see it in a Zoraida crew or in a dual master Titania/Zoraida. Probably more for fun than for a highly competitive one tho.

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Do people really rate Waldgeist that highly? It seems like a model that is relatively tanky, but you can mostly dance circles around. I can see it being good for zone controlling a turf war marker and the like?

What do people use them for? The scheme/ambush/scheme seems super narrow, since you usually need more flexibility in scheme placement. It is great on Harness and that is about it (now that Search is nerfed). Not to mention resource intensive- I can't imagine Titania is swimming in cards.

The double scheme of the waldgeist is pretty good; it may be used for Harness, Detonate, Breakthrough (they will need help getting there tho) or even dig if you have an scrap/corpse generator.

They are also very good generating underbrushes. They may generate one just where they are going to end walking to get a movement of 7'' without discard a card and still be in the underbrush for ambush or regenerate in the next activation and Titania may reposition some of these while she advances with her bonus action.

Titania Repositioning one of these in contact with an enemy gives them extra range in their mele attack (adding ambush they may have a charge range of a bit less than 9''; which is hilariously high for a tree!), their triggers are annoying (50% of Staggered or Slow, 25% reposition that may be used to put an enemy close to a beater or in the middle of a underbrush) Heave in a pinch is also an allied reposition tool for armored allies.

TLDR: Knights are better tarpits and more damage oriented, but the trees bring a few tricks to the table and have some good control and annoying abilities, plus are better creating underbrushes.

@goth In a list with 3 Dolls I'd try to include Vasilisa to be able to recicle the scrap into more dolls or Stitcheds and to inflict staggered more easily. Not sure how 3 dolls alone would work.

Titania may create underbrushes to take advantage of "Crade of Life" trigger, that's a 9.2'' walk plus the creation of an underbrush near, useful to cover extra terrain or to reposition and generate an underbrush near of her target (she can still move that one 3'' with the bonus) for  only 1 AP.

[goth]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

A list with 3 Waldgeist would be a very niche one; but I could see it in a Zoraida crew or in a dual master Titania/Zoraida. Probably more for fun than for a highly competitive one tho.

The double scheme of the waldgeist is pretty good.

@goth In a list with 3 Dolls I'd try to include Vasilisa to be able to recicle the scrap into more dolls or Stitcheds and to inflict staggered more easily. Not sure how 3 dolls alone would work.

Titania may create underbrushes to take advantage of "Crade of Life" trigger

If my opponent took 3 Waldgeist in any list, I am positive I would thank my lucky stars and ignore them all happily and safely... Titania+Zoraida+3xWaldgeist leaves 16 stones.

By double scheme I am thinking you are talking about dropping a marker, pushing 3” with ambush, then dropping another marker?

Dolls making scrap for Vasilisa or WWeaver, sure; Aeslin’s only bonus action exists to turn these into scheme markers.  The point is that WDolls are versatile and CHEAP with STEALTH!  Wherever above I mention three WDolls, feel free to take it to say two, and it has the same meaning.  The TL,DR of my post is: “Waldgeists are not good.  You may want to consider them for babysitting scheme runners, bonus if these scheme runners are somewhat synergistic.  6ss sucks to dedicate to a janitorial task.”

You’re right about Titania’s Germinate trigger, if you need that 9” place - but then you’re using a Master AP to Germinate AND tossing a 5mask (or worse) or praying for 25%?  Of course it’s all situational risk reward and will have to be evaluated in the moment.

 

[Ogid]

I'm not claiming these lists would be highly competitive, but at least playable for some fun games into the right pool. For example:

• Titania (IR), Gorar, Killjoy, Aeslin, Waldgeist x3 (+2 Ancient Pact). 8SS

6 Underbrushes plus a few more will be created by the Waldgeists; plenty of SS to protect Titania and Aeslin. Some good damage with Titania, Aeslin and Killjoy; scheme and control with Waldweist, +2 initiative, minor sustain with the roots and Juggernaut. 1 Blood Pact in Titania and 1 in the Waldgeist without Ancient Pact, keep Titania always under 1 or 2 underbruses to use Decaying Domain. For a Wedge, Idols with claim jump, harness/detonate/dig game it's not a bad crew to play in a non cutthroat scenario.

• Zoraida, Bad Juju(IR), Emissary, Waldgeist x3, Bokor. 5SS

A cool thematic Ents crew with most models unimpeded and that may heal/get some bonus out of the markers, again not over the top but playable into the right pool in an scenario where players aren't going to try very hard (for a bit more of ommph and less theme change Emissary for Vasilisa to get stitcheds)

6 hours ago, goth said:

Dolls making scrap for Vasilisa or WWeaver, sure; Aeslin’s only bonus action exists to turn these into scheme markers.  The point is that WDolls are versatile and CHEAP with STEALTH!  Wherever above I mention three WDolls, feel free to take it to say two, and it has the same meaning.  The TL,DR of my post is: “Waldgeists are not good.  You may want to consider them for babysitting scheme runners, bonus if these scheme runners are somewhat synergistic.  6ss sucks to dedicate to a janitorial task.”

Dolls are amazing, not denying that; but they fill different roles. A doll cannot place underbrushes, its double scheme is limited (towards an ally), cannot heal in underbrushes, aren't unimpeded (kind of important if the crew places underbruses all over the place), cannot take any agression, cannot be used as a node to use Zoraida actions... plus having the doll killed just where the scheme is needed and have Aeslin near isn't very reliable. I won't call scoring "Janitorial tasks"; while the rest of the crew is showing off, they are the ones getting the schemes done behind the scenes and creating extra underbrushes so the other models may use their triggers. They aren't amazing for their cost; they could take a minor buff and still be fine for 6SS, but they aren't useless.

6 hours ago, goth said:

You’re right about Titania’s Germinate trigger, if you need that 9” place - but then you’re using a Master AP to Germinate AND tossing a 5mask (or worse) or praying for 25%?  Of course it’s all situational risk reward and will have to be evaluated in the moment.

It depends on the turn and how much I need that movement. I'd never try that without a card I'm willing to cheat in the hand (wasting a Master AP just for Germinate is awful); if we are talking about a last turn denial or scoring that really needs to be done I'd be willing to spend a SS there. Even a Master needs to walk forward and if I can get 3'' extra plus an additional underbrush in the board for a weak/moderate mask in the first turn (where I don't need the hand that much) or if those extra 3'' will give me an extra attack, that seems like a good deal to me (and it's also a very efficient way to disengage and go wherever she needs to go).

[Irritated Walrus]

Teach me how to dougie. Teach me, Teach me how to dougie. 

[LexLock]

The place from cradle of life is insane, I find myself stoning for the mask if I don't have it first turn to alpha strike something down with Titania.

A Rougarou can push Titania up 16" without a TN and then she can place 9" and attack pretty much anything on the board. Because of butterfly jump and Ill omens you can have a pretty safe turn 1 alpha strike and if you bring stones to burn/blood sacrifice on Titania for the hazardous you can hit like a truck.

[Mike Wallace]

Oh, well. Titania is over 300,000 years old, but doesn't look a day over 20,000. Black hair, formerly amber eyes that would glow like sunset when she was angry or way too into an episode of Orange Is The New Black. She's 5'10" which some guys find is a turnoff because they're wussies. She's a Libra, which you never really hear anything bad about in horoscopes. It's like the plain smooth peanut butter of the Zodiac. She has two older sisters (Winter and Summer) and one younger sister (Spring), making her a bit of a middle child, which explains some issues she has with privacy and ownership. She wasn't born into royalty, but that's a whole other can of worms. Don't bring it up in conversation. She really tries not to bring up her vegan past, because Bayou-raised honey-glazed ham is her favorite thing ever these days. She really had it out for the human race (a Tijuana Bible had some very unflattering sketches) until she glimpsed into Fate's tapestry and realized Bob Ross would be born on Earth in a few decades, so her life goal right now is trying to clean up her planet so when she invites him over she isn't totally embarrassed even though she knows he won't mind, and they're going to totally fall in love when he teaches her how to paint without physical eyes. Sort of like that supernatural romance movie Ghost crossed with Event Horizon. It's cuter when you don't think about it. 

[Rubyhathunger]

20 hours ago, LexLock said:

The place from cradle of life is insane, I find myself stoning for the mask if I don't have it first turn to alpha strike something down with Titania.

A Rougarou can push Titania up 16" without a TN and then she can place 9" and attack pretty much anything on the board. Because of butterfly jump and Ill omens you can have a pretty safe turn 1 alpha strike and if you bring stones to burn/blood sacrifice on Titania for the hazardous you can hit like a truck.

I need teaching in Titania related things, your first strike strat sounds very solid, for a "slow" (not exactly fast) crew. But I wraped my head around your statement, that a Rougarou could push Titania 16", how does he do it? The push is only 6". Is it 2 times plus obey?  If that works it would be amazing, no one expects alpha strikes against Titania the moving tar pit crew

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Rubyhathunger said:

I need teaching in Titania related things, your first strike strat sounds very solid, for a "slow" (not exactly fast) crew. But I wraped my head around your statement, that a Rougarou could push Titania 16", how does he do it? The push is only 6". Is it 2 times plus obey?  If that works it would be amazing, no one expects alpha strikes against Titania the moving tar pit crew

I'll try to help you out:

The 16'' is probably a typo. But still 12'' plus 9'' let her strike almost wherever she wants. She will be unsuported by her crew, but with Butterfly Jump, 14 Wds, H2W, a nearby underbrush to hide behind, Cruel Disappointment and SS, she can take a lot of punishment.

To maximice her alpha strike you'll want blood sacrifice on her and be able to attack something very close (less than 2'') to where she places. This way she may use The Queen's Command to move the created Underbrush in contact with both she and the alpha strike target. This will make both lose 1 Wd, triggering Decaying Domain and making that marker Hazardous (I think the other model doesn't get the damage from the Hazardous trait in that action because it become hazardous afte the movement, but not 100% sure). Mind she is unaffected by underbrushes so she also ignores the Hazardous trait.

Now the fun part, each Into Thorns trigger will give +1 damage AND 1 extra ping damage from the Hazardous terrain as a "place" is a movement (so she becomes the equivalent to a 4/6/7 when she hits that trigger); as she have Blade Rush (IR) she may use the last action to charge to get that extra ping damage (becoming her mele the equivalent to a 5/6/7 damage track if she gets the trigger, being 2 points of these ping damage); but in this case she loses the , so it depends if the extra ping damage is needed.

Getting weak damage in both attacks (Hunger+Charge) with the trigger is 10 damage, this lowers to 8 damage without blood sacrifice, to 6 without getting the triggers and to 4 if she has to attack something more than 2'' away from an underbrush. Pick the right target and get the trigger is really important.

So she may hit like a truck but mind you'll need 2 severe crow cards to cheat or 2 SS to buy the triggers, some SS to reduce damage (for the counterattack) and be also careful to not leave her too vulnerable; she is tanky but can't survive to everything. So bringing a big cache is probably a good idea.

 

More related shenanigans: Aside for "Into Thorns" take in count the other displacements in the crew will also trigger the Hazardous damage (rougarou built in push, Killjoy Chain, Waldgeist Heave...), but only once per attack. If you may stack a hazardous Underbrush on top of a Emissary Hungry Land Marker, a model placed into that will get Hazardous damage from both terrains; which may be too much for most models and will be very effective versus high armor users as there would be 3 sepparate damage sources in that attack (the main attack plus the 2 hazardous damage pings).

[Maniacal_cackle]

That blood sacrifice combo is amazing xD

[LexLock]

5 hours ago, Rubyhathunger said:

I need teaching in Titania related things, your first strike strat sounds very solid, for a "slow" (not exactly fast) crew. But I wraped my head around your statement, that a Rougarou could push Titania 16", how does he do it? The push is only 6". Is it 2 times plus obey?  If that works it would be amazing, no one expects alpha strikes against Titania the moving tar pit crew

16" was a typo, I meant 12".

The Rougarou's push is pretty crazy, especially in a faction where any crew can get ill omens +2. I think Rougarou are worth hiring just for their push even out of keyword, assuming you are trying to alpha strike. They are probably worse stone for stone than the rider for mobility, but Nekima (and Euripides I guess) can't be dragged up by a rider/mature neph because she's sz 3.

[Ogid]

12 hours ago, LexLock said:

The Rougarou's push is pretty crazy, especially in a faction where any crew can get ill omens +2. I think Rougarou are worth hiring just for their push even out of keyword, assuming you are trying to alpha strike. They are probably worse stone for stone than the rider for mobility, but Nekima (and Euripides I guess) can't be dragged up by a rider/mature neph because she's sz 3.

Not only that, they are also a nice silver bullet versus H2W models.

A Focused attack is usually enough to get rid of the accuracy mod and make the damage cheatable, but that doesn't work for  H2W models. However they have both Flay and Puncture that will make the damage cheatable (the second needs Focused) having also max damage 6. Add to that IR and the extra 1 ping damage will let them start one shooting models that usually require at least 2 attacks to get rid off.

If I recall correctly, there is no other model with Puncture, Flay or damage built-in AND max damage 6 in the faction. The rider is more sturdy but he loses the IR damage (greatsword) and is max damage 5, Wrath may charge and get the IR, but it's also max damage 5.

In Titania crew versus non-H2W models, with Foused and getting the into thorns trigger, they can hit a 7 severe damage (8 into Hazardous terrain).

They are a bit glassy tho; but fast and scary beaters. And the great thing of all the displacements of Titania crew is they may single out enemies without exposing the Rougarou(s) too much.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Haven't played them yet, but on paper Rougarou look like Archie. Defense 4, htw, and tons of wounds. Plus super mobile.

If you throw them into enemies and let them get hit, they'll die pretty quick.

If you abuse their ultra high movement and free disengages, they're going to be pretty survivable.  Anyone who commits hard enough to kill that mobile a model is vulnerable to a counter attack if you set up right.

[Tors]

Minus terrifying 12, Minus flurry, a way worse heal and deadly pursuit instead of leap. If Archie is a car, the Rougarou is a bicycle. Both have tires but i wouldn't want to get involved with a rougarou in the freeway

[Maniacal_cackle]

To be fair, if Archie cost 8 and was minion (2), he would be a pretty clear cut candidate for the most broken model in the game 😜

But in terms of playstyle (squishy, mobile beater/scheme runner hybrid), they seem very similar to me. Rougarou focuses more on utility (abundant growth, intimidating roar), but overall similar niches.