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Teach me about Titania


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28 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

I've been struggling a bit with the Fae crew, specially with the lack of healing, so I'm thinking about adding Serena Bowman to my lists. She will suffer a bit from not having unimpeded, but I can switch the Emissary for the Rider and it should be fine. What do you guys think?

Also, how do you handle the lack of card draw in the crew? I usually go with 1-2 Ancient Pack, which are going to provide me with 4-10 extra cards during a game, but I'm not 100% sold on that.

I often think healing is a bit of a crutch. If your opponent is spending actions hitting you, and you're spending actions trying not to die, you are going to fall behind.

Healing is situationally useful, but the big two tips I have for it are...

First, don't let them charge you. You have superior board control with your markers and movement. Place in awkward locations so they can't attack. If you want to claim an area like the centre, you can do things like send Killjoy into the centre. Then they either have to fight him or let you have it.

Second, make them pay for charging you. Position your crew so that when they hit you, you can counter charge. This way models on both sides are dying and you are staying even. I lost the finals of a recent tournament because I didn't set up a countercharge and lost a model with no retaliation.

As for card draw, hand management is a very tricky aspect of the game. It takes practice, but you should be able to get by with six cards. You just have to skip abilities sometimes. That said, ancient pact card draw is crazy good and takes you from 6 cards to 8. I take two most games on Dreamer.

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19 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I often think healing is a bit of a crutch. If your opponent is spending actions hitting you, and you're spending actions trying not to die, you are going to fall behind.

Healing is situationally useful, but the big two tips I have for it are...

First, don't let them charge you. You have superior board control with your markers and movement. Place in awkward locations so they can't attack. If you want to claim an area like the centre, you can do things like send Killjoy into the centre. Then they either have to fight him or let you have it.

Second, make them pay for charging you. Position your crew so that when they hit you, you can counter charge. This way models on both sides are dying and you are staying even. I lost the finals of a recent tournament because I didn't set up a countercharge and lost a model with no retaliation.

As for card draw, hand management is a very tricky aspect of the game. It takes practice, but you should be able to get by with six cards. You just have to skip abilities sometimes. That said, ancient pact card draw is crazy good and takes you from 6 cards to 8. I take two most games on Dreamer.

I have plenty of experience in other masters and factions, but I just started to play a bit around with Titania because of a friend that has her :P

The thing is that sometimes I can't really pick the fight and I have to go places. Killjoy and Rougarous are not a possibility (Killjoy I hate the model, so it's a no-go for me, and for Rougarous I don't want to use proxies for now). There are a bunch of models that can shoot me from far away and have a printed :+flip to the attack (Samurais, Fuhatsu, Convict Gunslingers...) or they just simply concentrate and shoot once.

I'm not a big fan of wasting many actions on healing, but Serena's healing is her only free action and she also adds some anti-armor and anti-incorporeal range attack (another thing that the crew lacks). Also, healing a model that already has Armor+1 and HtW (Knights for example) means that the enemy will have to spend way more resources to kill it.

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I don't have experience with the crew but it sounds as the other player is playing smart and abusing the weaknessess of the crew: being sloooow, having low healing and teching against the concealment.

So you'll have to countertech: increase the mobility of the crew with versatiles and OOK picks and jump just in their face; serena is good but she will need some help with the underbrushes (Rider, Mature Neph...). I talked about a similar approach a while ago versus Ophelia... https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147093-titania-list-help/ some of these ideas could apply to your case.

Good luck!

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2 hours ago, ShinChan said:

 

There are a bunch of models that can shoot me from far away and have a printed :+flip to the attack (Samurais, Fuhatsu, Convict Gunslingers...) or they just simply concentrate and shoot once.:P

 

Oh yeah, also, make sure you're playing with enough terrain! It can be a real shock playing certain crews against shooty crews without terrain.

Over 30% of the board should be terrain that hampers line of sight.

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A random question about Fae: Is someone using Wisps with them? They seem terrific with the crew:

(4+1) 5SS is a bit pricy, but Lure may help repositioning allied models (it's tricky versus enemies with so much concealing tho, but the concealing will help them because they are squishy versus ranged attacks), it has flight and ambush so the underbrushes won't be a problem and can even help them.

However the best thing for me is the Distracting Illusion mele attack and the Shimmering lights aura. The mele attack is very good for a 4SS model (range 2, Stunned, Distracted and triggers for slow and coordinated attack). The only problem is the underwhelming stat4, which isn't a problem with Fae having Titania and Aesling giving Injured like candy. The range 2 is also great with all the placements and pushes the crew has to place range 1 models engaged with them at range 2.

The aura is also great with the movement effects of this crew (Into thorns, Heave, Hooked Chain, Toss in the mud, Ferocious Claws and Roar), every one of these will give Distracted+1 (and a Rougarou could give Distracting+2 with a single attack thanks to his push plus the trigger with the right set up). The placements are also good to put an enemy model in position, so the Wisp may grow into an Adze (less control focused losing the Distracting Illusion mele attack, but much more survivable so better for the Aura shenanigans)

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On 11/8/2019 at 6:03 AM, Ogid said:

A random question about Fae: Is someone using Wisps with them? They seem terrific with the crew:

(4+1) 5SS is a bit pricy, but Lure may help repositioning allied models (it's tricky versus enemies with so much concealing tho, but the concealing will help them because they are squishy versus ranged attacks), it has flight and ambush so the underbrushes won't be a problem and can even help them.

However the best thing for me is the Distracting Illusion mele attack and the Shimmering lights aura. The mele attack is very good for a 4SS model (range 2, Stunned, Distracted and triggers for slow and coordinated attack). The only problem is the underwhelming stat4, which isn't a problem with Fae having Titania and Aesling giving Injured like candy. The range 2 is also great with all the placements and pushes the crew has to place range 1 models engaged with them at range 2.

The aura is also great with the movement effects of this crew (Into thorns, Heave, Hooked Chain, Toss in the mud, Ferocious Claws and Roar), every one of these will give Distracted+1 (and a Rougarou could give Distracting+2 with a single attack thanks to his push plus the trigger with the right set up). The placements are also good to put an enemy model in position, so the Wisp may grow into an Adze (less control focused losing the Distracting Illusion mele attack, but much more survivable so better for the Aura shenanigans)

I'm not totally sold on those, but I haven't tried them 😕 For the lure I prefer the effigy (with the upgrade OFC).

I've tried Serena with a lot of success, the healing is really good to maintain some key pieces alive and the trigger on the ranged attack to reposition an enemy model up to 6" is nuts, helping a lot to get people closer to the underbrush marker. Definitely a good support piece.

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Recently, I ran a game where I decided to use living fae vs Lady J. To get the waldgheists up the board quickly, I started with 2 underbrush markers just 4 inches out of the deployment zone. This allowed me to move my waldgheists up to the underbrush and use ambush to get the extra 3 inches. Yes, this means not having those 2 underbrush blocking lanes for your opponent or near an objective, but that is made up for quickly by getting a waldgheist closer round 1, and still leaves an action for creating more underbrush. 

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On 11/8/2019 at 6:03 AM, Ogid said:

A random question about Fae: Is someone using Wisps with them? They seem terrific with the crew:

(4+1) 5SS is a bit pricy, but Lure may help repositioning allied models (it's tricky versus enemies with so much concealing tho, but the concealing will help them because they are squishy versus ranged attacks), it has flight and ambush so the underbrushes won't be a problem and can even help them.

However the best thing for me is the Distracting Illusion mele attack and the Shimmering lights aura. The mele attack is very good for a 4SS model (range 2, Stunned, Distracted and triggers for slow and coordinated attack). The only problem is the underwhelming stat4, which isn't a problem with Fae having Titania and Aesling giving Injured like candy. The range 2 is also great with all the placements and pushes the crew has to place range 1 models engaged with them at range 2.

The aura is also great with the movement effects of this crew (Into thorns, Heave, Hooked Chain, Toss in the mud, Ferocious Claws and Roar), every one of these will give Distracted+1 (and a Rougarou could give Distracting+2 with a single attack thanks to his push plus the trigger with the right set up). The placements are also good to put an enemy model in position, so the Wisp may grow into an Adze (less control focused losing the Distracting Illusion mele attack, but much more survivable so better for the Aura shenanigans)

I wouldn't roll Wisps with Titania unless I had a very good reason.  They're outperformed by Bultungin at cost 5.  Bultungin have Old ways to survive, abundant growth to ignore underbrush and give an extra marker at setup, deadly pursuit to move 16" a round, the ability to end conditions on anything, and 5 wds vs 4 at 5/4 vs 4/4.  They also have abilities to deny perform scheming.  The only thing I could see bringing a wisp for would be if I was bringing Zoraida with Titania to use it as a channeling point, but even that runs into problems due to the concealment from underbrush.

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2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I wouldn't roll Wisps with Titania unless I had a very good reason.  They're outperformed by Bultungin at cost 5.  Bultungin have Old ways to survive, abundant growth to ignore underbrush and give an extra marker at setup, deadly pursuit to move 16" a round, the ability to end conditions on anything, and 5 wds vs 4 at 5/4 vs 4/4.  They also have abilities to deny perform scheming.  The only thing I could see bringing a wisp for would be if I was bringing Zoraida with Titania to use it as a channeling point, but even that runs into problems due to the concealment from underbrush.

I agree, Bultungins are faster and more survivable schemers than Wisps; even Wisps could do in a pinch tho (13'' movement with Ambush) and flight is decent mobility. His Shimmering Lights is a poor's mans Disguised, but any ranged attack will destroy them. However Wisps can drop 2 markers in 1 turn, something the Bultungin can't.

But would you consider as a model to wander near of Titania/Aeslin? The idea is using the displacements of "Into Thorns" to put a model near of the wisp (or even engaged by him); giving him also Distracted and enabling the wisp to hit with its Distracting Illusion; that could let the crew control some hard to kill or dangerous model long engouh to kill him or to handle their companions. The Lure to help with positioning and Ambush to be able to drop 2 markers in 1 turn are nice extras but not the main reason I'd pick one.

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2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I agree, Bultungins are faster and more survivable schemers than Wisps; even Wisps could do in a pinch tho (13'' movement with Ambush) and flight is decent mobility. His Shimmering Lights is a poor's mans Disguised, but any ranged attack will destroy them. However Wisps can drop 2 markers in 1 turn, something the Bultungin can't.

But would you consider as a model to wander near of Titania/Aeslin? The idea is using the displacements of "Into Thorns" to put a model near of the wisp (or even engaged by him); giving him also Distracted and enabling the wisp to hit with its Distracting Illusion; that could let the crew control some hard to kill or dangerous model long engouh to kill him or to handle their companions. The Lure to help with positioning and Ambush to be able to drop 2 markers in 1 turn are nice extras but not the main reason I'd pick one.

Ambush has some issues, and the def 4 wd 4 track means it'll die to a stiff breeze.  Also, while technically it can lay two markers down in a turn, it's only simple interacts so it's limited by the 4" restriction, and you can only drop a second one with ambush if you push directly away from the first one, limiting placement in most circumstances.

At 4 stones I would consider it, but 5 stones is too much for a fragile minion that I'd only be using for distracted and stunned.  Aeslin already has counterspell to mitigate the trigger damage in a larger bubble, and both her and Titania give out injured on attacks.  Also while distracted is nice, the two models you'd keep around it are tanky enough to not worry that much about it.

The Bultungin is a better schemer, the crew can get access to better lures if it even wanted them, so the only difference being that small aura is not enough to win out the 5 stones.

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Ty for the insight

41 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

At 4 stones I would consider it, but 5 stones is too much for a fragile minion that I'd only be using for distracted and stunned.  Aeslin already has counterspell to mitigate the trigger damage in a larger bubble, and both her and Titania give out injured on attacks.  Also while distracted is nice, the two models you'd keep around it are tanky enough to not worry that much about it.

I think this could be where we see it differently. I don't see it as paying 5 SS but as paying 1 extra tax for that model to fit a role in the crew (debuffer) that crew doesn't have that well covered. There is really no difference between including a 9 SS model for 10SS than including a 4SS model for 5SS. It's the amount of OOK models included what matters in the end.

I'll definitely try them out eventualy.

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2 hours ago, Ogid said:

Ty for the insight

I think this could be where we see it differently. I don't see it as paying 5 SS but as paying 1 extra tax for that model to fit a role in the crew (debuffer) that crew doesn't have that well covered. There is really no difference between including a 9 SS model for 10SS than including a 4SS model for 5SS. It's the amount of OOK models included what matters in the end.

I'll definitely try them out eventualy.

I have wisps but I don't run them with Titania. Not when I can hire the effigy with the fate upgrade for 1 more SS than a wisp. The cheat face down bubble and lure more than take care of what you hired the wisp for, and after it changes to an Emissary, you get beater damage with a long range attack that creates hazardous terrain. And the Emissary and bultingun both remove conditions. 

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13 hours ago, Ogid said:

It can be kind of solved going versatile heavy or OOK but her crew is slow, so movement heavy strategy or schemes aren't her cup of tea. Any other than those, she is all set.

I wouldn't exactly say Bultungin and Rougarou are slow, but for running schemes Rougarou are too expensive and Bultungin are squishy (though they are quite good at marker based scheme denial).

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1 hour ago, Hawkoon said:

I wouldn't exactly say Bultungin and Rougarou are slow, but for running schemes Rougarou are too expensive and Bultungin are squishy (though they are quite good at marker based scheme denial).

That's right I wasn't accurate; whith "slow" I meant lack of good scheme runners and the ability to back them up quicky if needed. Bultungins are quick, but their only defense relies in the player having a better hand than the other player to use the old ways and can't double scheme. And Rougarous while fast are better suited for carnage.

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Aren't Bultungin and Rougarou meant to work together as a scheming team? The Bultungin schemes while the Rougarou rips up anything that comes near it?

Anytime I see a Bultungin on its own, I kill it. But every scheme runner needs protection. When Bultungin are guarded, they're annoying (being so good at moving around the board). 5 stones for a highly mobile schemer that also gives you an underbrush marker seems like a decent rate. I'm not sure if I'd take one, but I wouldn't be surprised if winning lists included one Bultungin.

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They could be good partners, I'd have to try that... but that's also an expensive duo, for what they cost the Hooded Rider could be dedicated to scheming and still have 2 SS extra for Cache/upgrade other model

A good scheme runner in the 5-6SS range should be able to either hold his ground versus a simmilar costed model or be elusive enought to run away from models sent to deal with him (or both!) and still have AP for schemes (Some examples: Coryphee, Silurid, Necropunk, Katashiro, Gokudo, Wandering monk...); a Bultungin lack too many tools for that job imo.

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8 hours ago, Ogid said:

They could be good partners, I'd have to try that... but that's also an expensive duo, for what they cost the Hooded Rider could be dedicated to scheming and still have 2 SS extra for Cache/upgrade other model

A good scheme runner in the 5-6SS range should be able to either hold his ground versus a simmilar costed model or be elusive enought to run away from models sent to deal with him (or both!) and still have AP for schemes (Some examples: Coryphee, Silurid, Necropunk, Katashiro, Gokudo, Wandering monk...); a Bultungin lack too many tools for that job imo.

Well, compared to a necropunk for example:

  • Higher defensive stats.
  • Moves the same distance (16 inches) per turn
  • Can push the enemy away instead of leaping.
  • Can disengage with an end of turn push.
  • Doesn't have armor or hard to wound.
  • Has underbrush models to run through to protect itself.
  • Can remove enemy scheme markers as a bonus action.
  • Is far better at Hold Up Their Forces.

So it holds up reasonably well to one of the best scheme runners in the game.

And maybe it is just playstyle, but you should be dedicating that many points to a scheme runner. Any opponent that spends less than 8-9 stones on a scheme runner is in for a rude awakening when they discover I'm going to kill their model with a mobile 8-9 cost model and move on with my day (Archie, Lord Chompy Bits who then teleports away, etc). It is in some cases better than a Hooded Rider because you get double the AP. If you're planning on laying three scheme markers and removing two enemy scheme markets with the duo... That'd be half the AP for the rider for the game.

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4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, compared to a necropunk for example:

  • Higher defensive stats.
  • Moves the same distance (16 inches) per turn
  • Can push the enemy away instead of leaping.
  • Can disengage with an end of turn push.
  • Doesn't have armor or hard to wound.
  • Has underbrush models to run through to protect itself.
  • Can remove enemy scheme markers as a bonus action.
  • Is far better at Hold Up Their Forces.

So it holds up reasonably well to one of the best scheme runners in the game.

And maybe it is just playstyle, but you should be dedicating that many points to a scheme runner. Any opponent that spends less than 8-9 stones on a scheme runner is in for a rude awakening when they discover I'm going to kill their model with a mobile 8-9 cost model and move on with my day (Archie, Lord Chompy Bits who then teleports away, etc). It is in some cases better than a Hooded Rider because you get double the AP. If you're planning on laying three scheme markers and removing two enemy scheme markets with the duo... That'd be half the AP for the rider for the game.

Well, Df 5 ans Wp 4 without any other tech is not good. They're very situational in my opinion. I see their use when facing heavy condition crews, due to that "Toss in the Mud" 

I really like the Bultulgin, mainly because they can drop 2 scheme markers in a single turn and they are way more resilient and annoying for the enemy. However they're really slow unless you have bad cards to discard for them, but usually I fit one in my lists.

I haven't tried the Rougarous, but they look too squishy for their cost. With Df 5 I will consider them for sure, but Df 4 means that against a focused attack, you're going to rely a lot in your flips, since is a crew without any card draw and some models are really card hungry. 

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7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, compared to a necropunk for example:

  • Higher defensive stats.
  • Moves the same distance (16 inches) per turn
  • Can push the enemy away instead of leaping.
  • Can disengage with an end of turn push.
  • Doesn't have armor or hard to wound.
  • Has underbrush models to run through to protect itself.
  • Can remove enemy scheme markers as a bonus action.
  • Is far better at Hold Up Their Forces.

So it holds up reasonably well to one of the best scheme runners in the game.

And maybe it is just playstyle, but you should be dedicating that many points to a scheme runner. Any opponent that spends less than 8-9 stones on a scheme runner is in for a rude awakening when they discover I'm going to kill their model with a mobile 8-9 cost model and move on with my day (Archie, Lord Chompy Bits who then teleports away, etc). It is in some cases better than a Hooded Rider because you get double the AP. If you're planning on laying three scheme markers and removing two enemy scheme markets with the duo... That'd be half the AP for the rider for the game.

The necropunk would be better at 6 stones than the bultungin is at 5, they aren't even in the same league.

The Bultungin would be decent if it wasn't so squishy, it'd still be worse at scheming than literally anything with a leap but it'd be pretty good for a neverborn schemer if it had any damage mitigation at all.

As it is, a prepared opponent is going to mince your only good scheme runner so you may as well spam wicked dolls and bring Vasilisa so they at least have to get within 6" to kill it and you might get a stitched out of it.

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On 11/21/2019 at 8:28 AM, psychogeek said:

I am about to buy Titania and her crew but I was wondering if you feel there is a weak strategy or schemes for her. She seems able to do it all based on crew choices 

Power ritual is a rough scheme for her, since while a bunch of stuff can get across the board theoretically, not a lot can get there in practice since it's too squishy or too slow.  You may consider it in a bad pool if you get corner or flank deployment.  Surprisingly breakthrough is doable since it's not as far or unsupported.

Detonate is tricky because she has no good way to lay down scheme markers in close enough proximity without your opponent helping you, either willingly or unwillingly.  Aeslin is essential for this if you go for it.

The only other one that is slightly weak for her is, surprisingly, Assassinate.  It's not so much that her crew has difficulty killing the master, although they do have issues killing several masters, insomuch as they have issues getting to said master.  Usually, unless they are going to come to you, you'll end up having to cut through the entire enemy crew first, which may or may not leave you with enough to kill the master.

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16 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, compared to a necropunk for example:

  • Higher defensive stats.
  • Moves the same distance (16 inches) per turn
  • Can push the enemy away instead of leaping.
  • Can disengage with an end of turn push.
  • Doesn't have armor or hard to wound.
  • Has underbrush models to run through to protect itself.
  • Can remove enemy scheme markers as a bonus action.
  • Is far better at Hold Up Their Forces.

So it holds up reasonably well to one of the best scheme runners in the game.

As said above, they aren't in the same league. Higher defensive stat is Df5/Wp4 versus Df4/Wp4 and the Necropunk has H2W, Armor+1 and 1 extra Wd (20% extra Wds in that range), that means most attacks will deal 1 or 2 damage to the Necropunk. Plus a Necropunk will need a 7 damage hit to be one shot (having also H2W), while the bultungin dies with a 5 damage hit (without having H2W) and he has to sacrifice wounds to use his defensive "Old Ways".

The Necropunk is faster 17.2'' (the jump isn't completely within), plus jump is better than Deadly Pursuit as he don't have to commit early in the turn (leap needs a 6+ in his case tho). And leap is much much better than the jump to run away (it doesn't slow down him, nor require winning a oposed duel) and can be used to double scheme. Bultungins may use the Underbrushes but any oponent that know what he is doing would have picked with Titania terrain in mind (plus brushes will probably be around the objectives, not in a random place to maybe cover the scheme runner at some point), so that won't make a huge difference most of the time.

Remove enemy markers for cards is a nice ability, but that offer little for the scheme runner role as most schemes needs to be placed in the enemy half, where the other player won't put their schemes (and try to contest schemes other models are protecting with a Bultungin is a really bad idea). He is also terrible at Hold Up their forces imo, most models with an stat 6 and willing to cheat a severe may destroy him. As also said above, Necropunk would be a legit choice at 6SS and Bultungins barely worth 5SS.

Versus an stat 6 model with a decent damage track, having Df5 and Wp4 the old ways require the fae player to have a card 2 or 3 points higher than the attacker to avoid the attack; if the attacking player wants to kill him, he only has to use a focused attack while having a severe in the hand to cheat the duel; Old Ways won't be enough so it'll deal 4/5 damage. If it deals 4 damage it'll also disable the old ways, so the bultungin would have no defense (a.k.a the ability to reuse the severe he just cheated/fliped) for the next attack.

With Df6 Wp6 they would be risky as they would rely in having a good card in hand, but they would be more playable (there the same card would be a tie, and a card higher would make both attacks fail, unless the other player may force a duel with a bonus action to put another card in the discard pile). But with his actual defensive stats he will crumble versus anyone who knows what he is doing (asuming simmilar hand). Plus pack mentality is cool thematically, but awful mechanically; no one is going to spend 10/15SS in those glassy models to have a 2/3/4 attack with stat 7 at best. I'd maybe consider them versus conditions heavy crews and for having some scheme denial that also give some draw (and just for conditions I'd probably consider a knight with Eldritch Magic; more expensive but make the knight even more tanky and make the condition removal much harder to remove). But for scheme runners I'd go for versatiles or OOK most of the time. They need some minor adjustement imo.

12 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I haven't tried the Rougarous, but they look too squishy for their cost. With Df 5 I will consider them for sure, but Df 4 means that against a focused attack, you're going to rely a lot in your flips, since is a crew without any card draw and some models are really card hungry. 

They are in the glassy side of the damage dealers but they aren't that squishy tho. 9 Wds and H2W go a long way; plus they hit like a truck (and that will also make them heal with "Eat Your Fill".

4 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Detonate is tricky because she has no good way to lay down scheme markers in close enough proximity without your opponent helping you, either willingly or unwillingly.  Aeslin is essential for this if you go for it.

For the scheme ones both Waldgeist and Aeslin help quite a bit. Waldgeist may interact, ambush, interact; which gives 2 scheme markers sepparated by around 4''; a "into thorns" trigger may place a model there to score detonate (or a Killjoy Hook, Waldgeist Heave...). Aeslin have a "Draw Out Secret" trigger that may even be used versus allies; so it's also a way to easily stack markers if you don't think you could get the trigger versus an enemy.

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I would like to point out that the Fae are not actually slow. As much as people like to say they are slow, what they really mean is most of Fae's walking is average and that Titania herself can outpace them. In actuality, the slowest Fae are waldgeist with the walk 4. But if you walk and ambush, it becomes 7 inches. Ambush should be fairly easy to keep set up with markers. So then the "slowest" fae is slow at 5 inches of walk.  

Additionally, with placement of underbrush markers, you should be able to somewhat slow down your opponent, which makes sure that your Fae should still be able to be the first to or across the centerline, if you want to be.

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