Let's get Presidential (Ironsides/M&SU Tactica)

[CD1248]

15 minutes ago, Hoff’s Ball said:

Points can be really tight. Fitz, Amina and The Cap all seem to be such auto includes with Toni. That bubble! I’m thinking only one gunsmith am I crazy?

Depends entirely on the matchup and terrain. You need sight lines and, preferably, Easy Targets to get the most out of them.

Played a game today against Titania on a board with a lot of cover-granting Ht2/3 ruined walls. Took no Gunsmiths, went with more Versatile models.

In fact the only M&SU models I brought were Toni, Mouse, Union Miner, and Fitzsimmons. Then Rider, Spider Swarm, Mecharachnid, SS Miner.

Won 5-4, even after missing out on a scheme entirely because my Vendetta Mecharachnid got killed by a RJ damage turn 1.

[MuMantai]

I don't think any of the henchmen (and -women) are auto-includes.

- Amina is really good, defensive and offensive. Against melee-heavy crews, her aura is pure gold. Also, it is hard to argue with obey.

- Contrastly, the captain is very good into shooty lists, and he is a very fast model with a good offensive.

- Fitzsimmons is in a weird middle ground, his auras are generally nice, but he has no good selling points outside of that, other than maybe anti-scheme.

I have played with all of them at some point, but I would be hard pressed to put all of them into the same list (maybe for Reckoning).

And for Gunmiths, they are good, but falter really fast if attacked, and want to stay in the bubble. I don't think I would take two of them. I like more flexible, self-sustained models with Ironsides.

[hemgath]

What a nice " breackdown" ^^

Do you facing big beater like "lady justice" or "vicks", have particulary have bad experience in Toni vs Lady J in m2e... and seem the confrontation in m3e look the same.

[CD1248]

On 8/8/2019 at 6:36 AM, hemgath said:

What a nice " breackdown" ^^

Do you facing big beater like "lady justice" or "vicks", have particulary have bad experience in Toni vs Lady J in m2e... and seem the confrontation in m3e look the same.

The biggest risk I see with Lady J is that she spends all game picking at the flanks and avoiding Toni. If Toni can drag her in I think she wins that fight. 

Viks feel the same.

Ironsides doesn't lose boxing matches fundamentally, unless they bring Irreducible damage, deny her built in Df trigger, or target a stat other than Df. To kill her by normal means they have to either soften her up significantly, kill the support pieces lurking behind her, or both.

[Shiftyboy]

Can confirm that Toni vs LJ does not end well for the blind lady. Had a pretty much uninterrupted duel between them in my last game, and it was brutal. Ironsides walked away untouched (though Justice Leaped away just long enough to skewer Howie before she went down). 

[Douglas Scoundrels]

I've been a bit busy lately, what with running a tournament and having a child, but I'll be getting back to my model breakdowns soon. I've had a lot of good fortune with games lately, and am feeling more positive about Toni that I have been  for a long time. Also! I recorded an episode with Craig Shipman (Third Floor Wars) so look forward to that coming out in the coming weeks.

[Ravenzadow]

On 10/3/2019 at 6:20 PM, Kaiser Senpai said:

I've been a bit busy lately, what with running a tournament and having a child, but I'll be getting back to my model breakdowns soon. I've had a lot of good fortune with games lately, and am feeling more positive about Toni that I have been  for a long time. Also! I recorded an episode with Craig Shipman (Third Floor Wars) so look forward to that coming out in the coming weeks.

I am legitimately excited about both upcoming events. Your write up single handedly got me into playing Toni.

[CD1248]

Won a tournament game with Ironsides today, 7-6 over the Viks on Plant Explosives/Flank.

Schemes: Breakthrough, Detonate, Dig Graves, Assassinate, Deliver.

Ironsides, Mouse, Howard, Amina. Fitzsimmons, Gunsmith, SS Miner (Magical Training), Mobile Toolkit

Vs Vik1, Vik2 (both with Soldier for Hire), Taelor (Servant of Dark Powers), Vanessa, Midnight Stalker, Ronin, Big Jake

Viks deployed forward and wide, got all 5 bombs down by the end of turn 2. However, Vik2 died on turn 1 after getting dragged into the murder ball by Toni. 

Ronin, Taelor, Vik1, and Big Jake all ended up in my deployment doing Breakthrough because Toni's murder ball killed everything else and I had only lost Amina and the Toolkit, with anything else that got hurt being healed up by Mouse.

Picked up 2 bombs on turn 5 to deny the crucial point, got all 4 Strat points, 2pts from Dig, 1pt from Assassinate. He got 3 strat, 2 Breakthrough, 1 Deliver.

Amina did way better than I expected. Fast and free movement from Walk the Line, plus Obey, made Howard and Gunsmith into absolute terrors.

I don't think I'd have changed anything going into the matchup, against a different master I wouldn't take the Toolkit but going into Viks those power tokens were essential.

An 8-5 score was within reach, I wiffed 3 stat 6 attacks on a 1hp Injured1 Vik, to miss my second Assassinate point, which would have almost certainly stopped his second Breakthrough too.

Ended up taking 1st in the 9-man field, other games were Marcus 5-3 over Lady J on Turf/Corner, and a 7-2 final round of Sandeep over Shenlong on Idols/Standard. Might do a writeup of those games tomorrow.

Addendum: If I had to replay this exact game, I'd drop Howard and Toolkit for a Spider Swarm with Diesel Engine and some other significant model in the 4-5SS range. Howard did really good, but Viks had a 8SS cache and he couldn't get enough Executes in to make a big dent with that. The built in Onslaught and Latch On would have been more impactful, and having something like a Saboteur or Union Miner to speed bump the Ronin may have denied him a point.

[valkirsWrath]

Played a tournament with Toni for the last game yesterday, Reckoning with Deliver a Message and Search the Ruins. It did not go too well, I was up against Nekima and it ended 3-6 with only Toni standing strong. 

I ran: 

Toni, Mouse, two gunsmiths one with Magical Training, two Steam Arachnids, Steam arachnid Swarm with Diesel Engine and Amina. 

 

I did several mistakes, this was only my second game with Toni and it shows. I took the two small bots because I figured they could scheme for search the ruins, rather than having one Mecharachnid. They were hunted down before I could get even one point. I was a bit unimpressed with Amina, just like last time, though I did forget about extended claims. She got two good obeys and stopped some charges but I didn't feel that it was that impactful. I think if I'm to use her I must focus more on her walk the line action. 

Two Gunsmiths really felt like overkill, and the terrain kinda hurt me. I overextended with one to snipe Nekima's totem, though it got away thanks to "I've got your back". Moue took the blow for that and got butchered. My feelings are that Fitsz might be better as a generalist than Amina, and that I really should try out Howard von Murderbot. Oh and realise that the Steamfitter isn't just for Howard Duty. Steam arachnids lackluster. 

 

One thing that I feel like I struggle with is movement and positioning. How are you actually supposed to be moving the union bubble around? Can anyone give me some tips for that? 

[bertmac]

Enjoyed a couple of games with toni this weekend, played against kirai who kept summoning ghosts to run at toni and get counter punched to death also took 2 gunsmiths and envy that game which seems powerful in reckoning. 

Against kaeris she toughed it out and between toni and one gunsmith managed to take out kaeris, Carlos, the flame golem, eternal flame and a fire gamin, the captain and a union miner killed firestarter and a firebranded before dying to elijah and burning and ss miner helped out with a point for breakthrough.

[Hinge]

I have been having a lot of success lately with Toni. Recently I have been adding the Magical Training upgrade to her. I find the Arcane Shield and Counter Spell to be very useful on a model that wants to mix it up with the enemy.  

[SoulGambit]

Hey, where did you get pictures of the cards for this?

[Douglas Scoundrels]

20 hours ago, SoulGambit said:

Hey, where did you get pictures of the cards for this?

I downloaded the pdfs from the Google drive and then use a pdf-to-jpg converter online

[Ogid]

Nice in deept-article!

I'm still on it but about this bit:

On 7/29/2019 at 6:13 AM, Kaiser Senpai said:

Currently, the wording on Focus only specifies 'subsequent damage flip'. I've checked with a few other Henchmen and we all agree that, as it stands, if Ironsides spends a focus to give her a positive flip to her defense, she'll also get a positive flip on this damage flip!

It points towards the Focused doesn't apply there, but it's not 100% clear yet. Some links to 2 threads about that in the rules forum:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147318-focus-and-triggers-or-demise-abilities/

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/146554-defence-trigger-and-focus/

 

[Douglas Scoundrels]

7 hours ago, Ogid said:

Nice in deept-article!

I'm still on it but about this bit:

It points towards the Focused doesn't apply there, but it's not 100% clear yet. Some links to 2 threads about that in the rules forum:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147318-focus-and-triggers-or-demise-abilities/

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/146554-defence-trigger-and-focus/

 

I can see why it's questionable and vague. Honestly, I prefer the simplicity of 'subsequent' meaning 'all damage flips contained within the action' but won't throw a fit if it gets FAQ'ed to be you cant (it's more of a cute trick anyways with Toni).

[Ogid]

12 hours ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

I can see why it's questionable and vague. Honestly, I prefer the simplicity of 'subsequent' meaning 'all damage flips contained within the action' but won't throw a fit if it gets FAQ'ed to be you cant (it's more of a cute trick anyways with Toni).

I also want it FAQed, there are some models relying in df triggers. It'd be important to know exactly how these are supposed to work.

Right now I lean towards a no for the following reasons:

Definition of Focused: + to duel and resulting damage flips (this is implied to be during the action or it could also be applied to other attacks triggered in the same action, which we know it's not the intention). 

But in resolving actions (pg 23). The step 6 is excluded from the action (the step where after resovling/succeeding triggers happen), placing these triggers outside of the action (hence outside the scope of Focused)

Quote

Focused +X: Before performing an opposed duel, this model may lower the value of this Condition by one to receive a + to the duel (and any resulting damage flip this model makes).

Quote

Resolving Actions is a straightforward process. The model proceeds through the five steps below in order: 1. Declare the Action 2. Pay any Costs 3. Targeting 4. Perform Duels 5. Apply Results

(...)

Step 6: After Resolving Any effects that happen after an Action is resolved, including any After Resolving and After Succeeding Triggers happen at this time.

Action triggers rules specificaly states focused always apply to these (so it'd apply even to step 6 triggers like Ricochet):

Quote

Action Triggers are tied to specific Actions and can only be used with that Action. They are found below an Action’s effect and are subject to all game effects that affect the Action (such as Incorporeal or + flips to damage).

But that bit is missing from the defensive triggers rules:

Quote

Resistance Triggers are Abilities (listed on the front of a model's Stat Card) and may be used when the model is involved in an opposed duel that uses the stat referenced by the Resistance Trigger. Resistance Triggers cannot be declared by a model if they are targeted by an Action generated from their own Disengage Action.

[Douglas Scoundrels]

So I've been playing Amina incorrectly and I find it incredibly frustrating that attempting to play with what your crew needs for survival and attempting to play Amina to your crew's strengths is so hamstrung. First off, that friendly Concealment from Diesel Engine/Vent Steam hampers her Obey. Now she needs to burn a Focus to ensure she can reach her target number just because you wanted to protect the crew from ranged attacks. You could argue this was intended to make you choose between safety and offense/support. I can begrudgingly accept that. Second, though, her own Reach of the Union screws with your ability to take advantage of Toni's Df trigger or Howards Vent Steam. It's a blanket prevention, so Amina can't make enemies charge anything within 6 of her.

[bertmac]

14 minutes ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

So I've been playing Amina incorrectly and I find it incredibly frustrating that attempting to play with what your crew needs for survival and attempting to play Amina to your crew's strengths is so hamstrung. First off, that friendly Concealment from Diesel Engine/Vent Steam hampers her Obey. Now she needs to burn a Focus to ensure she can reach her target number just because you wanted to protect the crew from ranged attacks. You could argue this was intended to make you choose between safety and offense/support. I can begrudgingly accept that. Second, though, her own Reach of the Union screws with your ability to take advantage of Toni's Df trigger or Howards Vent Steam. It's a blanket prevention, so Amina can't make enemies charge anything within 6 of her.

Think you've got the last bit wrong there, she can make them charge, they just don't get to attack so would still be affected by vent steam.

[Jinn]

1 hour ago, bertmac said:

Think you've got the last bit wrong there, she can make them charge, they just don't get to attack so would still be affected by vent steam.

They would take 1 less damage though because they couldn't declare the action generated by the charge.

[SunTsu]

On 11/20/2019 at 8:42 PM, Jinn said:

They would take 1 less damage though because they couldn't declare the action generated by the charge.

It seems to me that's really a minor problem.

However, if you really badly need that single, you usually should be able to arrange enemy model position so that it don't suffers from Amina's aura (I mean let it end its charge move out of los from her).

[Douglas Scoundrels]

On 11/23/2019 at 10:50 PM, SunTsu said:

It seems to me that's really a minor problem.

However, if you really badly need that single, you usually should be able to arrange enemy model position so that it don't suffers from Amina's aura (I mean let it end its charge move out of los from her).

The goal is actually to have them charge Ironsides who's in the steam bubble. That's 3-6 damage you're not getting. It IS possible with positioning but I don't think that you should have to finagle your stuff so much to be able to do what they seem like they're supposed to do in the first place.

[Douglas Scoundrels]

Won the Renegade Open tournament while taking Toni 2/3 rounds. The second round with Ramos I'm confident I could have won with her too. She seems to do all right against Ressers.

[Stumpyfjord]

I’ve found the plus flips vs Terrifying one of the best parts

[Ogid]

Have anyone tried to uionize a Bear (SRM)? It seems like it could work on paper... and there are already an unionized Mouse.

The best way would probably be adding Myranda with SS cache as an OOK; she could attach the Horns Mutation in turn 1 and become a bear in turn 2.

It'd be a range 2with a 3/5/6 damage track (grit active) and Onslaught, and also an sturdy carrier for the Empower Aura (H2W, attuned and Juggernaut). The downside is how expensive it is (12SS), around that cost there are models like the Emissary with an upgrade or Rider/Joss...

And the other way around? Hiring Amina/Toni in a Marcus crew.

[AskM3L8r]

On 12/12/2019 at 1:15 PM, Ogid said:

Have anyone tried to uionize a Bear (SRM)? It seems like it could work on paper...

I've been considering exploring that option just for esthetic fun crew. Have SRM and Amina in Collette crew to have a "Dancing Bear".

*Presto Chango* 🤣