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Grave digger and dig their graves


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Question

The ability field of corpses says at the end of the game, treat all corpse as scheme markers. If you're within 6 inches of a corpse and a scheme marker, it will count both of them as scheme markers and you can't use this to score now, right? 

Or does it count as both a corpse and a scheme marker? I just don't see the word may so RAW would turn it into two scheme markers.

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I mean, it would be a bit funny if Grave Diggers were one of the most obstructive models in the game at Digging Their Graves. That seems more than a little counter-intuitive. :P

Personally, I'd agree that they would be both Corpse and Scheme markers (they are Corpse Markers, and you also treat them as Scheme Markers). I'd draw the line at any suggestion that a single Corpse could be both a Scheme Marker and a Corpse Marker within 1" of that Scheme Marker - I agree with Adran that six Corpses would be required for Dig Their Graves.

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8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If a club all agreed that they wanted to interpret the rule that the gravedigger could use three, that's fine, but I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to pressure opponents to accepting the dubious 'three markers will do' ruling.

There's really nothing dubious about it if you want to go with the markers are both scheme and corpse markers. What's dubious is trying to apply the "different" in dig their graves to mean anything other than 3 individual scheme markers near 3 individual corpse markers. If the markres are both corpse and scheme then you satisfy the conditions of having 3 scheme markers near 3 different corpse markers.


 

 

21 hours ago, solkan said:

I think the counter argument would be the various effects that treat models as various markers, and include clauses like killing the model if the marker would be removed.

Removed isn't a thing that applies to models. There's no game state for them that is "removed".  Killed however is. 

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<Mod hat> moved to the rules forum because its likely to affect non ressers as well </Modhat>

Field of corpses: at the end of the game all corpse markers within :aura6 are treated as friendly scheme markers.

(the rest of the text isn't relevant to the question)

I guess the question is, do these corpse markers still count as corpse markers (In particular for dig their graves)

End: At the end of the game, if you have three or more different Scheme Markers within 1" of three different Corpse or Scrap Markers, you may remove three such Scheme Markers to gain 1 VP.

 

I think that you could score it with just corpse markers, but you would need 6 corpses to do so. You would treat the corpses as both Corse and scheme markers.

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5 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

I would say no, you can't count them as both scheme and corpse markers.

I think the counter argument would be the various effects that treat models as various markers, and include clauses like killing the model if the marker would be removed.

I think friendly/enemy and stat values are the cases where something can't be two different things at once.

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25 minutes ago, yames said:

I guess my question is, if they are still both why would you need 6? Are then not withen 1 inch of themselves? 

 

Well, the Scheme says "different" :)

End: At the end of the game, if you have three or more different Scheme Markers within 1" of three different Corpse or Scrap Markers, you may remove three such Scheme Markers to gain 1 VP.

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4 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Well, the Scheme says "different" :)

End: At the end of the game, if you have three or more different Scheme Markers within 1" of three different Corpse or Scrap Markers, you may remove three such Scheme Markers to gain 1 VP.

Well true but does it mean different scheme markers/corpses? What if I have three corpse next to each other that's three different scheme markers withen 1 of three different corpse markers. So couldn't it he done with 3? 

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Different almost certainly means different. I doubt it was intended to cover this interaction, but using a scheme marker and then using it as a corpse marker isn't a different marker. The obvious intent of the scheme is that you should have6 markers, and without clear text to change that I'd stick with it as needing that. 

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2 hours ago, ShinChan said:

There isn't any "instead of" in the wording, so I also agree that they're still corpse markers, but yes, you would need 6 to score the second point of Dig their Graves.

That's how I see it.

Six markers, with at least 3 of them being corpse markers. 

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5 hours ago, Adran said:

Different almost certainly means different. I doubt it was intended to cover this interaction, but using a scheme marker and then using it as a corpse marker isn't a different marker. The obvious intent of the scheme is that you should have 6 markers, and without clear text to change that I'd stick with it as needing that. 

I agree with Adran. It's technically ambiguous in the RAW (rules as written), but it's pretty clear what the RAI (rules as intended) is. They're probably supposed to be different.

Additionally, I cite the rule of "It's just a game, play nice." The gravedigger/dig their graves combo already looks exceedingly powerful to me. No reason to try to bend interpretations of the rules to make it even more powerful.

If a club all agreed that they wanted to interpret the rule that the gravedigger could use three, that's fine, but I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to pressure opponents to accepting the dubious 'three markers will do' ruling.

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Additionally, I cite the rule of "It's just a game, play nice." The gravedigger/dig their graves combo already looks exceedingly powerful to me. No reason to try to bend interpretations of the rules to make it even more powerful.

Check out walking forge on the foundry constructs.  It's even stronger.

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5 hours ago, Clement said:

Check out walking forge on the foundry constructs.  It's even stronger.

That's debatable. It gets scrap markers down easier, but you can't complete the scheme with only scrap. The Grave digger could in theory complete the last step with only using its bonus action all game (and its free corpse at the start of the game). (Or even completely just by having models die around it, both yours and your opponents!)

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7 hours ago, Clement said:

Check out walking forge on the foundry constructs.  It's even stronger.

They deffinitely arent stronger. They are very good at scoring Dig, but the still need scheme markers to do it and they need to spend their entire turn doing it. 

Scheme markers can be removed by literally any model, whereas corpse removal is much harder to come by, and all it takes is just the survival of a versitile model?

If you are expecting a Walking Forge model to score the points all by himself he'd need to kill something near a scheme marker, which is hard for them, and spend 3 turns walking once, being unengaged, dropping a scheme marker, then ending its activation. If you bring 2 of the cheapest Walking Forge model to speed the process along you are spending 12 stones (out of keyword) to accomplish your scheme... which is more than the mechanical rider, who could score Dig even easier.

Compared to the Grave Digger who cost 6 stones, is versatile, and can score Dig passively, literally just for existing. At their worst they are comparable to the Walking Forge (use the interact action, a bonus action, and have 1 AP left over for 3 turns), they have the potential to score the scheme much easier and with much fewer constraintd.

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5 hours ago, Adran said:

That's debatable. It gets scrap markers down easier, but you can't complete the scheme with only scrap. The Grave digger could in theory complete the last step with only using its bonus action all game (and its free corpse at the start of the game). (Or even completely just by having models die around it, both yours and your opponents!)

 

3 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

They deffinitely arent stronger. They are very good at scoring Dig, but the still need scheme markers to do it and they need to spend their entire turn doing it. 

If we care enough to really get into this, we should likely take it to another forum, but gravediggers need to spend their bonus actions and pass a dual (admittedly not hard, but bad things happen) to get 3 turns of walk, scheme, corpse to finish out that second point.   Metal gamin do effectively the same trick but more efficiently, in a more durable package, at the same price.  More annoyingly, the Foundry keyword can make great use of those scrap to ride the rails without consuming the marker, something ressers could only dream of with corpses.

Barring the glorious world where my gravedigger sat unmolested all game and just happened upon a huge field of corpses neatly spaced within 1" of each other, I'd take the gamin any day.

note:  burning bonus actions and your starting corpse to build a "corpse farm" in a corner of the table feels like a huge trap.  it ends up being a ton of wasted AP since gravediggers don't have much else to do other then run around unless they're willing to get up near the enemy to support (and into "get murdered" range).

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