Gunfighter and advance building rules

[genx3000]

 

Gunfighter says this model may treat any projectile action as having a range of melee 1". 

If you were in engagement with another model would this action be a melee attack or a projectile attack or both. And how would that work. 

 

Been using the advanced building rules it's say in the advance building rules that place affects cannot be used to move into and out of buildings. Would summon, flight, replace and unbury not be able to place a model into the building as they would all use a placement effect to move a existing model or a new model into the building. 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, genx3000 said:

 

Gunfighter says this model may treat any projectile action as having a range of melee 1". 

If you were in engagement with another model would this action be a melee attack or a projectile attack or both. And how would that work. 

 A stat can't have two different values simultaneously.  

You're not allowed to take  actions while engaged, so if you declare one of the actions on that card that is listed with a  range while you're engaged, you instead use the 1 range. 

I believe the big impact of that is that if your Bandido is engaged, they don't get to use Trigger Finger.  (Because you can't simultaneously claim it's not a Projectile Attack (so you can take it while engaged) and claim that it is a Projectile attack. (So that you can use it for Trigger Finger.))

And the word "may" in Run and Gun means that use the Charge action to push into your 1" melee range and declare your Gunfighter'd melee attack.

1 hour ago, genx3000 said:

 

Been using the advanced building rules it's say in the advance building rules that place affects cannot be used to move into and out of buildings. Would summon, flight, replace and unbury not be able to place a model into the building as they would all use a placement effect to move a existing model or a new model into the building. 

If you choose to use the Placement option in Flight, it can't be used.  Because at that point Flight is just a regular old Place effect, and if the word Place is capitalized on a card, that means the ability was written during the "Yes, we really mean it" development phase.  Do keep in mind that the Flight ability is a "may" effect.  So a model with Flight can choose to Walk or Charge through a doorway, it just has to do so like all of the non-Flight models do.

And Unbury is at least 50% capitalized Place, so I assume they meant that part.

For summoning, unbury and replacement, the important point is "Place effects cannot move a model into our out of a Building."  The only reasonable interpretation of that sentence I can come up with is:

- If a model was on the table at the start of the effect, and on the table at the end of the effect, the effect can't be used to enter or leave the building.  Instead, if it was inside it has to remain inside, and if it was outside it has to remain outside.  For replace effects, pretend the new and original models are the same model moving from the original to new positions for the previous sentences.

- If a model wasn't on the table at the start of the effect (because it was buried,  or is getting summoned), it can be placed inside the building.

Disclaimer:  The Advanced Building Rules are attempting to model what 2nd edition called "enclosed", as far as I can tell.  If the roof and all of the exterior walls aren't intact, that's not really the sort of thing those rules are trying to represent.

 

[genx3000]

Totally agree with what you say about gunfighter. And really like your interpretation for the advanced building rules. But would it be more accurate to say in play than on the table so it would be

- If a model was in play at the start of the effect, and in play at the end of the effect, the effect can't be used to enter or leave the building.  Instead, if it was inside it has to remain inside, and if it was outside it has to remain outside.  For replace effects, pretend the new and original models are the same model moving from the original to new positionsfor the previous sentences.

- If a model wasn't in play at the start of the effect (because it is getting summoned), it can be placed inside the building

As buried models can still be targeted by attacks and attack other models and do activate form the void so they are in the game. And as you said Placed is partly capitalised this would allow better encompassing of all rules. 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, genx3000 said:

Totally agree with what you say about gunfighter. And really like your interpretation for the advanced building rules. But would it be more accurate to say in play than on the table so it would be

- If a model was in play at the start of the effect, and in play at the end of the effect, the effect can't be used to enter or leave the building.  Instead, if it was inside it has to remain inside, and if it was outside it has to remain outside.  For replace effects, pretend the new and original models are the same model moving from the original to new positionsfor the previous sentences.

- If a model wasn't in play at the start of the effect (because it is getting summoned), it can be placed inside the building

As buried models can still be targeted by attacks and attack other models and do activate form the void so they are in the game. And as you said Placed is partly capitalised this would allow better encompassing of all rules. 

Counter point:

A Death Marshal uses Pine Box on an enemy model, burying it for a turn.  The pine box effect says to unbury the model in base contact with that Death Marshal.  Try explaining why the buried model can't be placed in the enclosed building that it left.

That sort of situation is why I made the distinction that I did.  Reasonably speaking, the unburied model isn't crossing the building's walls.

A flying model is using Place to cross the building's walls.  An unburying model, or a summoned model, isn't because it wasn't on the other side.

[genx3000]

OK an explanation to your question would be:

Mechanically

When a model is buried it is removed from the table and placed off table(the void). This allows it to move from the building to off the table. The model is now buried but still in play when it goes to unbury next to the death marshal it moves from off the table(the void) into the building. As the building is an enclosed build with walls, floors and a roof the model now has to pass though part of the building to get inside.  As the model is being placed from off the table (the void) and into the building. Under the advance building rules it would not be able to place into the building and would have to place into deployment zone as the failsafe unbury rule. 

 

The Thematically

The death marshal grabs the poor unsuppecting model it struggles but the death marshal over powers it and stuffs it into the pine box and nails it's shut. It bulls up the floor boards of the house digs a whole and places the pine box into it. Then he replaces the floorboards the poor model continues to struggle he manages to get out of the pine box but can't break through to the surface because of the floor to the house so he has to tunnel his way out when he finally breaks through he is located where he first came into the area far away from the others but alive. 

 

And the paragraph below covers the full spectrum of placements (summon, unbury, flight and replace). As both summon models and the new models that replaces the old models are not in play at the start of the effect and Buried models and flight models are in play at the start of the effect. 

- If a model was in play at the start of the effect, and in play at the end of the effect, the effect can't be used to enter or leave the building.  Instead, if it was inside it has to remain inside, and if it was outside it has to remain outside.

 

[solkan]

6 hours ago, genx3000 said:

OK an explanation to your question would be:

Mechanically

When a model is buried it is removed from the table and placed off table(the void). This allows it to move from the building to off the table. The model is now buried but still in play when it goes to unbury next to the death marshal it moves from off the table(the void) into the building. As the building is an enclosed build with walls, floors and a roof the model now has to pass though part of the building to get inside.  As the model is being placed from off the table (the void) and into the building. Under the advance building rules it would not be able to place into the building and would have to place into deployment zone as the failsafe unbury rule. 

The statement is not "You not allowed to place a model inside the building."  The statement is prohibiting placement effects across the boundary of the building.

6 hours ago, genx3000 said:

 

The Thematically

The death marshal grabs the poor unsuppecting model it struggles but the death marshal over powers it and stuffs it into the pine box and nails it's shut. It bulls up the floor boards of the house digs a whole and places the pine box into it. Then he replaces the floorboards the poor model continues to struggle he manages to get out of the pine box but can't break through to the surface because of the floor to the house so he has to tunnel his way out when he finally breaks through he is located where he first came into the area far away from the others but alive. 

So you're ignoring the fact that the Unbury effect crosses the boundary of the building, putting the model that started inside the building outside the building.

I have the rules quote for you (slightly out of context, but presented for intent):

Quote

These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position of the Buried model, such as range, LoS, ,, moving the Buried model, etc.

This is all arguing about the position of the buried model, and whether it is inside or outside the building.   But that's an effect related to its position.

And then the whole thing circles around to "So how come newly created models are allowed to placed inside the building?  They don't have a board position yet, either."  Mechanically, they get constrained by their summoning upgrades (and thus have game state) before they hit the table.  They're going from "nowhere" to "somewhere, inside the building".

In other words:

1.  I can't find a sensible reason to tell people that you can't you can't summon models inside an enclosed building.

2.  If you can summon models into an enclosed building, unburying to that same enclosed space is doing the same thing.

3.  All of the above is distinct from a model on the table using a place effect to cross the boundary of the building.

 

[SunTsu]

11 hours ago, solkan said:

A stat can't have two different values simultaneously.  

You're not allowed to take  actions while engaged, so if you declare one of the actions on that card that is listed with a  range while you're engaged, you instead use the 1 range. 

I believe the big impact of that is that if your Bandido is engaged, they don't get to use Trigger Finger.  (Because you can't simultaneously claim it's not a Projectile Attack (so you can take it while engaged) and claim that it is a Projectile attack. (So that you can use it for Trigger Finger.))

And the word "may" in Run and Gun means that use the Charge action to push into your 1" melee range and declare your Gunfighter'd melee attack.

Whle I'm with you completely about the placement effect discussion, I'm not so sure this solution is the right one about gunfighter... The rule says:

Quote

Gunfighter: This model may treat any  action as having a range of 1". 

Note that it doesn't say "this model may choose any action to become a 1" action instead". It says that a projectile action is treated "as having" a different range (and only range).

So, my guess is that the action itself define the action, both before than later, a action.

My way to read it is that that action will remain a , even if switch its usual range with a melee range.

 

My two cents.

[genx3000]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

So you're ignoring the fact that the Unbury effect crosses the boundary of the building, putting the model that started inside the building outside the building.

I am not ignore the fact the model move crosses the boundary of the building to off the table. What I am saying that to do that the model is removed from the table which allows it to cross the boundary as it is not classed as being Placed outside of the building but removed to outside the building. 

But when they are moved back to the table thay use a placement effect to move the model across the boundary of the building to back inside the building which would not be allowed under the advanced building rules. 

1 hour ago, solkan said:

I have the rules quote for you (slightly out of context, but presented for intent):

These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position of the Buried model, such as range, LoS, ,, moving the Buried model, etc.

This is all arguing about the position of the buried model, and whether it is inside or outside the building.  But that's an effect related to its position.

 

The full quote would be

This quote is actually talking about how the action that you can take against buried models is not affected by game effects created from the buried model and is also not effected by the position of the buried model in reference to range and Los.

1 hour ago, solkan said:

then the whole thing circles around to "So how come newly created models are allowed to placed inside the building?  They don't have a board position yet, either."  Mechanically, they get constrained by their summoning upgrades (and thus have game state) before they hit the table.  They're going from "nowhere" to "somewhere, inside the building".

In other words:

1.  I can't find a sensible reason to tell people that you can't you can't summon models inside an enclosed building.

2.  If you can summon models into an enclosed building, unburying to that same enclosed space is doing the same thing.

3.  All of the above is distinct from a model on the table using a place effect to cross the boundary of the building.

 

I would argue that while they the upgrade has game state and that even though a model is concentrated from It. It does not have position and is not in play until it is attached to a model and that model is put into play. It could be argued that the summoned is going from not in play to in play while still remaining in the building. E.g. You place a bayou gremlin on the table in the building from the physical position of the model it is now in the building it has not been summoned yet so is not in play (nowhere) and has no game state so can not be interacted with. You then summon the model and attach the upgrade the model now moves from not in play to in play and now has game state. The model is physically always in the building allowing for it to be placed as it never moves just changes between the two different states of play. 

You cannot do that with a buried model as they are always in play whether they are buried or not. 

 

 

[genx3000]

22 minutes ago, SunTsu said:

Whle I'm with you completely about the placement effect discussion, I'm not so sure this solution is the right one about gunfighter... The rule says:

Note that it doesn't say "this model may choose any action to become a 1" action instead". It says that a projectile action is treated "as having" a different range (and only range).

So, my guess is that the action itself define the action, both before than later, a action.

My way to read it is that that action will remain a , even if switch its usual range with a melee range.

 

My two cents.

The problem with that is the first bullet point of primary effects on engaged models. 

If another model engages you and your projectile action that has a 1" melee is still classed as a projectile attack. You would not be able to use that action as you will be engaged and you cannot use projectile attacks while engaged. Thus making gunfighter quite a useless ability. 

[Amateur Contender]

@genx3000 The reason Gunfighter exists is to allow certain models the ability to break the core rules....which is something most models do in Malifaux. Severe Terrain, by the core rule standard, reduces movement by half. However, models with "Unimpeded" ignore Severe Terrain and are allowed to pass through with their movement unaffected.

[genx3000]

49 minutes ago, 11Anthonyc said:

@genx3000 The reason Gunfighter exists is to allow certain models the ability to break the core rules....which is something most models do in Malifaux. Severe Terrain, by the core rule standard, reduces movement by half. However, models with "Unimpeded" ignore Severe Terrain and are allowed to pass through with their movement unaffected.

This does not answer my original question how does gunfighter work. Please post in your own words

[Ogid]

I agree with @solkan pow about this one

On 7/28/2019 at 2:22 AM, genx3000 said:

Gunfighter says this model may treat any projectile action as having a range of melee 1". 

If you were in engagement with another model would this action be a melee attack or a projectile attack or both. And how would that work. 

Gunfighter let you replace the X'' range for a1''. The range icon is what make an ability a ranged or a mele one.

If you use the later range (mele), then the attack would be treated as a  attack (so you can use it engaged, no cover or concealment would apply, Tony would break your face with his defensive trigger "Good Shot, My Turn"...). 

 

On 7/28/2019 at 2:22 AM, genx3000 said:

Been using the advanced building rules it's say in the advance building rules that place affects cannot be used to move into and out of buildings. Would summon, flight, replace and unbury not be able to place a model into the building as they would all use a placement effect to move a existing model or a new model into the building. 

The key with this one is the word "move", these rules are trying to represent the walls of a building; the place effect are usually flight (or other types of physical movement effects). These rules aren't 100% detailed so there is room for debate, the best thing to do is talking it with your group before the game.

My reading:

Anything that place being a movement (walk or charge action for example) wouldn't be allowed; however other effects like the ability "Fly with me" would be included in this category without being stated as a movement; trying to detail or argue about every ability as legal or illegal would make it more complicated than it should. So, the rule of thumb of "if the effect place while the model is in the table, then it can't be done" is a very good one.

Summoning, replacing or placing a buried model on the other hand are hardly a movement (these effect usually represent teleporting, walking through the time or outright summoning), but mechanically they use the wording "place". I'd allow these effects to place inside of the buildings, however this is debatable and only Wyrd could give us a definitive answer. Just talk with the other player before the game; if you just can't agree, then don't use these rules until they are officially clarified.

[Amateur Contender]

@genx3000 Yeah, sorry for not being clearer. My answer at the time was going to be that Gunfighter allowed models to take a Projectile action while engaged. However, after reading through the rules and some more persuasive arguments, (thanks @Ogid), I ultimately decided on Gunfighter giving you the ability to use your Projectile actions as 1" Melee actions if you so choose. So, in essence, you can use the same attack, but instead of shooting them with your Custom Peacebringer, you're just pistol whipping them in the face. Hopefully that makes sense?

[Ogid]

56 minutes ago, 11Anthonyc said:

So, in essence, you can use the same attack, but instead of shooting them with your Custom Peacebringer, you're just pistol whipping them in the face. Hopefully that makes sense?

For me thematicaly, it's the good old gun-fu (john wick for example); the model is a good shooter, but in close combat he can fight with his ranged weapons in his hands and use the openings he creates to shoot the other guy instead of physically hitting. And being in hand to hand combat, there are no  rules; so no cover or concealment; the other guy just get shoot directly in the face if he flips better.

Something like this:

[Amateur Contender]

20 hours ago, Ogid said:

For me thematicaly, it's the good old gun-fu (john wick for example); the model is a good shooter, but in close combat he can fight with his ranged weapons in his hands and use the openings he creates to shoot the other guy instead of physically hitting.

That's what most of us who play Perdita were hoping for when it came to her "Finger on the Trigger" action

Combine that with the misinterpreted "Gunfighter" ability, and people (including myself) happily believed that Perdita could shoot at those who had the gall to charge her and stop them in their tracks.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, 11Anthonyc said:

That's what most of us who play Perdita were hoping for when it came to her "Finger on the Trigger" action

Combine that with the misinterpreted "Gunfighter" ability, and people (including myself) happily believed that Perdita could shoot at those who had the gall to charge her and stop them in their tracks.

Yep, Gunfighter doesn't allow  engaged. But being a  attack has its own advantages, the model can fight in a building shadow or into models with concealment aoe effects getting rid of those modifiers.