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I haven't actually played with (or even built!) my Basse crew yet, but how are we liking the individual models of his crew?

 

Are Frontiersmen fantastic?

 

Is Bernadette boring?

 

Amazed by Austringers?

 

Captivated by Cornelius?

 

Rekt by Reichart?

 

Rejoice for Raptors?

 

You get the gist!  How do we like them?

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27 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I haven't gotten a chance to play Basse yet, but I really like his aesthetic so I'll be sure to give it a go.

I know the feeling.  I've got all the Guild Masters but I'm refusing to try something else until I can win a game with Sonnia (I figure that once you can win a game you should have a reasonable idea of how the crew works)!  There's a good chance Basse will be the first other Master I try, so I'm canvassing for opinions now so I know what to test first!

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  • 5 months later...

After a few games I am really struggling to see what Basse and crew are supposed to excel at. My guess is that they are supposed to be durable and mobile. So far however they have lived up to neither of these expectations. Home on the Range is a really, really lackluster ability. No matter how many in your crew have it the bonus is still only the +1" additional to deployment (I hope I am reading this wrong and it is +1" per iteration of Home on the Range). Favorable Terrain has some potential, however necessitates heavy use of Kick Up Dust which competes with other :ToS-Fast: actions that are available while also often needing  a 5 or higher to succeed (I can't tell you the number of times I had to cheat this in my last game). The minions are the most heavily impacted by both of these. The benefit is also largely offset by the realities of dictating the turn order and its ineffectiveness against any attack that doesn't have a :ToS-Range: in its profile. I have also found them somewhat slow with the possible exception of the Pathfinder who can use Follow My Path outside of activation during the Start Phase thanks to Trailblazer.

I really want to like this crew but can't help feeling like they really need a lot to be even decently competitive. Any one having different experiences?

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1 hour ago, Omenbringer said:

After a few games I am really struggling to see what Basse and crew are supposed to excel at. My guess is that they are supposed to be durable and mobile. So far however they have lived up to neither of these expectations. Home on the Range is a really, really lackluster ability. No matter how many in your crew have it the bonus is still only the +1" additional to deployment (I hope I am reading this wrong and it is +1" per iteration of Home on the Range).

Pretty sure it stacks. Since it says  +1" (and not 1"), they should stack. 5 copies of the effect gives +5 inches for your crew. Pretty crazy for corner deployment!

Also keep in mind it doesn't look like a very big keyword, so it'll probably get more models later on. I don't know much about the crew beyond that, though, so hopefully someone can be more helpful :)

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53 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

After a few games I am really struggling to see what Basse and crew are supposed to excel at. My guess is that they are supposed to be durable and mobile. So far however they have lived up to neither of these expectations. Home on the Range is a really, really lackluster ability. No matter how many in your crew have it the bonus is still only the +1" additional to deployment (I hope I am reading this wrong and it is +1" per iteration of Home on the Range). Favorable Terrain has some potential, however necessitates heavy use of Kick Up Dust which competes with other :ToS-Fast: actions that are available while also often needing  a 5 or higher to succeed (I can't tell you the number of times I had to cheat this in my last game). The minions are the most heavily impacted by both of these. The benefit is also largely offset by the realities of dictating the turn order and its ineffectiveness against any attack that doesn't have a :ToS-Range: in its profile. I have also found them somewhat slow with the possible exception of the Pathfinder who can use Follow My Path outside of activation during the Start Phase thanks to Trailblazer.

I really want to like this crew but can't help feeling like they really need a lot to be even decently competitive. Any one having different experiences?

Home on the Range does stack. It has a ‘+1’ in the Ability name meaning that you get +1” more deployment area for each additional Frontier model. 

Also good to call out that the Dust markers are Concealing, which will impact both projectile and magic attacks. Melee is the minions’ big weakness.

From my experiences, I would say the keyword really likes to stall the opponent in early turns using traps/birds/snipers while the frontiersmen are off scheming. Yes, all the minions are fragile and will go down quickly to anything that decides to go after them. But by then you should have stalled the opponent long enough to have prevented their scoring while you’re out ahead on points. Guess I’d call that an area control and scheme denial type of play?

I personally play pathfinder/Paul and trap lists (minus Reichert) with this crew and bring in one or two versatile/OOK models depending on schemes (from a Guild perspective). The traps usually gum up my opponents enough that I’m the one dictating where the action is happening and am often denying them access to my table half. 

We should keep in mind we don’t know what goodies Basse may get in his second faction. So while guild brings in more guns and Armor/shooting upgrades, we haven’t seen everything yet (I’m super pumped to see what else he gets.. hopefully a beast or two more in keyword!).

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Basse crew looks really fun tbh, If I wanted to spread my collection more, I'd go for him for sure.

I think this bit nailed it:

7 hours ago, Sweet Tooth said:

From my experiences, I would say the keyword really likes to stall the opponent in early turns using traps/birds/snipers while the frontiersmen are off scheming. Yes, all the minions are fragile and will go down quickly to anything that decides to go after them. But by then you should have stalled the opponent long enough to have prevented their scoring while you’re out ahead on points. Guess I’d call that an area control and scheme denial type of play?

They don't seem to favour direct clashes, but using all their tools to annoy the other crew, keep the distance while soften with their ranged attacks and score. Home on the range can give the whole crew a solid +5 to +8 extra deploiment area; in some scenarios they can almost deploy in the middle line! Traps are very cheap and summonables so great to make the other crew waste a few APs. They have also some interesting tricks:

Kick Up Dust is a DROP, not a create and it'ns not destructible; that means it can be drop on top on an enemy model and will force that model to suffer the severe terrain (can also drop in the charge lane and act as a poor's man disguised). They also have 2 Bring it in the keyword; the dust severe can be used to adjust a bit the movement to avoid those models to reach engagement range (and take the mele action) or to make them land just in the 2'' engagement range of Reichart. Another trick with the dust is the Basse trigger that make it Hazardous; it's a bit expensive/unreliable, but an unactivated and engaged model that get the Dust transformed in Hazardous will have to take 2 damage or waste 1 AP disengaging and still take 1 damage; and Basse's crew have tools to put 2 models in this scenario.

Bring it in the totem plus more reposition tools and blasts in Basse set up a nice ofensive Combo. And Reinchart is a good mix between a tarpit and beater that can also be used to set up combos and buy time for the rest of the crew (He looks a bit expensive tho). Note also the Reposition trigger in Kick up Dust in Basse; that gives an effective 3'' extra range to his shotgun and enable him to double scheme in a turn and still have 1 AP to do other stuff if needed and he has good denial with Claim the bounty.

The Pathfinder seems very good, free follow my path, free extra movement for traps, summoner of traps and a very solid gun on top of it for only 6SS.

It's still early to know what more will be in the faction, but with some corpse generation in the faction a Raptor "breed" machine could be made, and with a model like Guilty it'd be easy for the Austringer to reattach the Raptor upgrade or abuse some Basse blasts; this is a long shot tho. Crockett presence probably means the keyword will get some extra beasts. It's also worth to note this keyword will benefice from Focused a lot to ramp up the damage, specially minions, there are a lot of 1/3/5, 2/4/5 and 2/3/5 tracks; that's another thing to look for.

Looking forward to read what you can do with this keyword guys!

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17 minutes ago, Ogid said:

. Another trick with the dust is the Basse trigger that make it Hazardous; it's a bit expensive/unreliable, but an unactivated and engaged model that get the Dust transformed in Hazardous will have to take 2 damage or waste 1 AP disengaging and still take 1 damage; and Basse's crew have tools to put 2 models in this scenario.

,

This doesn't quiet work like that. The Action that has the hazardous trigger moves the model out of severe terrain as part of the action effect.  You can make the dust clouds hazardous, but you need to have 2 enemy models in 1 cloud to still have one of them standing in the hazardous terrain

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Good point, revising the wording it's a bit harder to set up. But still, with most of the models having kick up dust and being a drop instead of a create it's still doable; and bring it can be used to force that model again into the hazardous marker (and even force it to take 2 damage if the attack also happens).

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12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Pretty sure it stacks. Since it says  +1" (and not 1"), they should stack. 5 copies of the effect gives +5 inches for your crew. Pretty crazy for corner deployment!

 

12 hours ago, Sweet Tooth said:

Home on the Range does stack. It has a ‘+1’ in the Ability name meaning that you get +1” more deployment area for each additional Frontier model.

You see I agree that is how it is intended to be played however, the ability doesn't really read that way:

          Home on the Range +1: When deploying, every friendly model with this Ability can deploy +1"  beyond this Crew's Deployment Zone.

The stackable +value behind the Home on the Range ability isn't clearly associated with affecting the static value in the description in any way.  In other words the ability doesn't perform like the Injured condition (which clearly associates the +value after the condition to the variable effect value in the description) but more like the Distracted condition (where the +value behind the condition doesn't affect the static effect value).

Perhaps in a future errata the association could be made clearer by changing the static value in the description to a variable +X" instead of the existing static +1" if that is what is intended. In either event, I still feel the ability is lackluster and would have been better served by simply giving the crew From the Shadows as their signature ability (this would reflect their mastery of the terrain fluff much better).

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1 hour ago, Omenbringer said:

 

You see I agree that is how it is intended to be played however, the ability doesn't really read that way:

          Home on the Range +1: When deploying, every friendly model with this Ability can deploy +1"  beyond this Crew's Deployment Zone.

The stackable +value behind the Home on the Range ability isn't clearly associated with affecting the static value in the description in any way.  In other words the ability doesn't perform like the Injured condition (which clearly associates the +value after the condition to the variable effect value in the description) but more like the Distracted condition (where the +value behind the condition doesn't affect the static effect value).

Please go read the Abilities section, and the example with Armor +1.  

Because you appear to be claiming that the Armor example won't work either.

Quote

Armor +1:  Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +1.

with the example:

Quote

Example: A model has “Armor +1: Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +1.” If the model gains Armor +1 from an Upgrade or other effect, the Abilities would combine to give it “Armor +2: Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +2.”

Disclaimer:  The rules for abilities on models that have an effect on the crew as a whole, and how those stack, could use an errata or FAQ so that they're spelled out in detail.  That is, spelling out that crew-affecting abilities on models stack the same way as they would if all of the abilities were all on the same model.

But please keep in mind that the +X convention for Conditions is only actually used in the Conditions rules.

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2 hours ago, solkan said:

Please go read the Abilities section, and the example with Armor +1.  

Because you appear to be claiming that the Armor example won't work either.

with the example:

Disclaimer:  The rules for abilities on models that have an effect on the crew as a whole, and how those stack, could use an errata or FAQ so that they're spelled out in detail.  That is, spelling out that crew-affecting abilities on models stack the same way as they would if all of the abilities were all on the same model.

But please keep in mind that the +X convention for Conditions is only actually used in the Conditions rules.

Let me state again, I agree that the intent is for it to stack and expand the deployment zone in increments tied to the value and not just 1" regardless of value.

With that said the ability doesnt read like that as currently written. Armor is a fair comparison but is tied to a singular model where as Home on the Range references a group of models. The wording on Armor is singularly applicable where as the wording on Home on the Range is plurally applicable and makes parsing out the intent more confusing to the first time reader.

I have read the rules references you posted (that is where I went before posting), they really didnt provide the clarity you are implying they should (not intended as a slight at all).

My main reason for continuing to post is that I agree with you that for the sake of clarity and consistency abilities should have a similar and consistent format to conditions and both should clearly spell out what they do and how they are used (in this case instead of including a static value of +1" for Home on the Range it should be a +X"  instead).

Just some thoughts since the forum current seems to be trending toward erratas and faqs.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I’ve written it out before or the Guild threads, but HotR has the single worst technical writing I’ve seen in a game. And I think our designers did a great job giving us a great game - this one is just particularly hard.

i just posted the following to a local group FB thread on Basse:

what happens is basically this:
You hire Cornelius, Bernadette, and a Frontiersman.
Cornelius deploys: a weird unspecified timing window is suddenly created. 
- his HOTR ability triggers, and he can deploy +1".
- Bernadette's HOTR ability triggers, and Cornelius can deploy +1". Because it has a "+" sign, these stack, and he now can deploy +2".
- the Frontiersman's HOTR triggers, and Cornelius can deploy +1". Because of the + sign stacking, he can now deploy +3".

Now Bernadette deploys: a weird unspecified timing window is suddenly created ...
etc.

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1 hour ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I’ve written it out before or the Guild threads, but HotR has the single worst technical writing I’ve seen in a game. And I think our designers did a great job giving us a great game - this one is just particularly hard.

i just posted the following to a local group FB thread on Basse:

what happens is basically this:
You hire Cornelius, Bernadette, and a Frontiersman.
Cornelius deploys: a weird unspecified timing window is suddenly created. 
- his HOTR ability triggers, and he can deploy +1".
- Bernadette's HOTR ability triggers, and Cornelius can deploy +1". Because it has a "+" sign, these stack, and he now can deploy +2".
- the Frontiersman's HOTR triggers, and Cornelius can deploy +1". Because of the + sign stacking, he can now deploy +3".

Now Bernadette deploys: a weird unspecified timing window is suddenly created ...
etc.

This seems exceptionally weird to me... It is a passive ability, it is never triggered or generated. From the rules:

Quote

Most Abilities are passive and always in effect, but some occur as a result of another game effect. In these cases, the Ability will use the word “After.

Seems pretty clear to me that Home on the Range ("when deploying") is a passive effect and it applies for the entire deployment from all of them at once.

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From the Rulebook:

Quote

If a model gains a second instance of an Ability it already possesses (most often from an Upgrade), the second instance of the Ability has no effect unless the Ability has a value (such as Armor +1).

If an Ability has a value, then the values of that Abilities values with a '+' in front of them are combined together."

 

From the Frontier cards:

Quote

Home on the Range +1: When deploying, every friendly model with this Ability can deploy +1" beyond this Crew's Deployment Zone.

 

So, we have an Ability that has a value (Home on the Range +1) so any instances a model gains would have the values combined (the +1" in the text).

 

There are two ways this can be viewed: 

 

The first is that the values stack for each Home on the Range +1 that a model is affected by (each one in the crew).  So, because each instance of Home on the Range +1 affects every friendly model with the Ability, each model tallies up the number of +1"s it's affected by and can deploy that many inches beyond its Deployment Zone.

 

Or we can view each Home on the Range +1 as separate Abilities that technically aren't "gained" by each model and so do not stack, meaning each model can only deploy +1" beyond their Deployment Zone.

 

If it is the second view, then why does the Ability have the +1 value in the first place?  The rulebook is quite clear that Abilities without a value do not stack.  When an Ability has a value, then any values that are part of the Ability (and I do think the 'values of an Ability with a value' is incredibly clunky wording) are added together and the resulting figure is used.  If the intent is for Home on the Range to not stack, the value isn't necessary. 

Simply writing the Ability as:

Quote

Home on the Range: When deploying, this model can deploy up to 1" beyond their Deployment Zone.

would have avoided all questions as to how the Ability works. 

But the fact a value is included means it stacks, otherwise you have a situation where an Ability is specifically given a value, but the resolution of that Ability would conflict with the rules in the rulebook about abilities with values.

 

And now I feel I've written the word 'value' way too much!

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For the record, the question of “Does this ability accumulate across models?” was asked during the open beta and answered “Yes, it does” by the developers.  I don’t have a link, though.  

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4 hours ago, solkan said:

For the record, the question of “Does this ability accumulate across models?” was asked during the open beta and answered “Yes, it does” by the developers.  I don’t have a link, though.  

It's probably locked up in the beta forums with all the other good conversations.

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