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I can't see any reason why you couldn't, but you can't ever have more than 1 duet and 2 coryphée on the table, so if you hire them the duet is basically stuck as a duet until both coryphée are dead.

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  • 3 weeks later...

You can but the best way to use them is to take a Duet and don't use it's bonus action until the end of it's activation and from there you split it down and on you're next activation activate the second coryphée and reform it to get another two actions out of it. Remember that once it splits you need to nominate the one that is activated

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  • 4 weeks later...
14 minutes ago, Paulo33 said:

But what's happen when the duet have at least a condition (fast, slow, focus, burning, staggered, etc...) before splitting ? Does the two coryphee have the condition or only one inherit it/them ?

Page 32 of the PDF rulebook:

One model may also be Replaced by multiple models. If this happens each new models must be placed into base contact with the original model. Resolve step 2 individually for each new model then choose a single model for steps 3 and 4.

 

3 If the original model had any Conditions or Tokens the new model gains those Conditions at the same value (ifany) and all Tokens.These Conditions if gained during the End Phase do not resolve their effects. Any Summon Upgrades Attached to the original model are Attached to the new model; all other Upgrades are discarded.


4 If the new and original models belong to the same Crew the new model becomes the target of any effects that targeted or chose the original model such as Schemes, Leader designation or lasting game effects. The new model i salways considered a legal target for those effects.

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Just a sanity check, these rules would let the duet get 2 extra actions out of a Fast condition, right?

  • Someone put fast on the duet
  • Duet activates, use 3 actions and Dance Apart. Choose for the states the unactivated coryphee (who gains fast).
  • Activate the Coryphee with fast and Dance together; the new duet get the fast and have another 3 normal actions.
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Uh, I guess that's correct. Don't see why not.

Edit - Oh, and If you really want to make your opponent rage quit, then have the Mech-Rider reactivate the duet for another four actions 😀 (that works, right?)

It's a cool trick. It's a shame there are so few ways to give out fast in Archanist.

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15 minutes ago, Michael Curran said:

Sorry but Idk see that ‘fast’ entry on their cards?  Do you mean they can push?

Apologies for naïveté.

They aren't fast. There are ways to make models fast, and the post was talking about how the duet could get 2 actions out of one use of fast. 

Off the top of my head I can only think of Hoffman, but I'm sure there are other ways. 

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7 hours ago, Adran said:

They aren't fast. There are ways to make models fast, and the post was talking about how the duet could get 2 actions out of one use of fast. 

Off the top of my head I can only think of Hoffman, but I'm sure there are other ways. 

The only other thing I can think of is to bring Cassandra as well as Hoffman, so she can copy his Overcharge ability.

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I think it's absurd that splitting and reforming a model is a viable option the same turn. Also, in my mind, the two models replacing the activated coryphee should both have the same number of AP and bonus actions left that the original model had left when splitting (so 0). The same should be true when forming. If a rat king is formed by the action of a model that has 0 AP left, it should have 0 AP itself (and not the 2 AP of one other rat that did not activate that turn).

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47 minutes ago, Humphrey said:

I think it's absurd that splitting and reforming a model is a viable option the same turn. Also, in my mind, the two models replacing the activated coryphee should both have the same number of AP and bonus actions left that the original model had left when splitting (so 0). The same should be true when forming. If a rat king is formed by the action of a model that has 0 AP left, it should have 0 AP itself (and not the 2 AP of one other rat that did not activate that turn).

You're welcome to think this, but it's not what the rules say. The models power level is based on the rules it follows. Do you also dislike Tara and her reactivation?

The duet has always been a model with more actions than other models, in all the editions, so it's stayed fairly similar in effect. ( I think I was able to complete power ritual in turn 1 in first edition because it was that quick)

For what it's worth if a rat king is formed by a model that has 0 ap left in its activation, then it does have 0 ap left. 

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2 hours ago, Humphrey said:

I think it's absurd that splitting and reforming a model is a viable option the same turn. Also, in my mind, the two models replacing the activated coryphee should both have the same number of AP and bonus actions left that the original model had left when splitting (so 0). The same should be true when forming. If a rat king is formed by the action of a model that has 0 AP left, it should have 0 AP itself (and not the 2 AP of one other rat that did not activate that turn).

If that were an exploited oversight, then I'd be with you; but it's part of the design of that model. Models with unique mechanics are fun to play with and against. As long as they are balanced I'm fine with it. And the duet is paying 12 stones for the privilege.

The other player have the oportunity (in most cases) to activate a model when the duet splits, that could be exploited: Lure 1 of them so they cannot reform so easily, use shockwaves or blasts and damage both coryphees, put negative effects on one of them so it'd be passed to the duet, remove the fast before the duet activates...

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Thanks for your opinion. I agree with you that unique mechanics are, what makes Malifaux an awesome game that I really enjoy. I might unintentionally have crossed a line while stating my opinion. Maybe my bad English or lack of experience created a misunderstanding.

I’ll leave Tara aside as she is (as the Mechanical Rider) clearly intended to do, what she does, as its printed on her card

No offence implied. I feel free to think, that there is a loop hole in the functioning of bonus actions and replacement effects, if you can break up and reform the coryphee the same turn. You clearly have deeper insights than me concerning the balancing of the models and this mechanic, so I will accept and wait for a possible FAQ.

Sidenote: 12 SS feels completely fine for a stat line with Df/ Mi 7 with nimble, agile and armour +2, even without shenanigans, but again, I may be mistaken. 🙂

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15 minutes ago, Humphrey said:

I feel free to think, that there is a loop hole in the functioning of bonus actions and replacement effects, if you can break up and reform the coryphee the same turn.

For what it's worth, the "pseudo-reactivate" that the Coryphee Duet gets by virtue of being able to dance apart and then have one of the coryphee use dance together was something that came up quite early during the beta, and was very vocally hashed over.

Once upon a time, the Coryphee Duet also effectively completely healed itself at the end of the Dance Apart-Dance Together cycle.  The added the irreducible damage effect to Dance Apart to address that part of the interaction; and chose not to do anything about the "pseudo reactive" component of the interaction.

As far as whether it's an exploit or not, keep in mind that the Coryphee have slightly worse stats than the Coryphee Duet.  Also keep in mind that the Coryphee Duet's best case scenario is:

  • Best starting case is the Coryphee Duet has fast
    • Perform 2+1 regular actions
    • Use Bonus Action to perform Dance Apart
      • Choose Coryphee A to continue the activation (which is just going to end, because you used all of the actions as the Coryphee Duet), and put Fast on Coryphee B.
  • Enemy player activation
  • The Fast Coryphee activates.  It has to use Dance Together to make the Coryphee Duet, so the Coryphee Duet won't have a bonus action to use.  And the Coryphee Duet continues the Coryphee's activation, so it only has whatever actions left over that the Fast Coryphee doesn't use.

So best case you get three actions performed by a Coryphee Duet out of the sequence.  In exchange for temporarily being more vulnerable (and a huge target once the Coryphee Duet starts getting near half health).

There's probably a pending errata for the Replace rules to deal with some scenarios in the "replace many with one" and "replace one with many" rules, but someone would probably have to demonstrate something really overpowered to get this sequence changed.

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9 hours ago, Humphrey said:

Sidenote: 12 SS feels completely fine for a stat line with Df/ Mi 7 with nimble, agile and armour +2, even without shenanigans, but again, I may be mistaken. 🙂

I have to disagree at this point. Yes the stats you mentioned (DF7, Mv6, nimble, agile, armour+2) are really nice to have, but if you look at the complete rules and keep in mind, that you win/lose the game through Strategies and Schemes (and therefore placement and AP), I think there are certain issues:

First of all, if you hire a 12§ model you have to ask yourself "is this model really better than 2 models @ 6§?" I mean, if you get 2 models you automaticaly get 4 AP. So what qualifies the model to be better than 2 mdels/4AP? I.e. in case of the mechanical rider it is the ability to activate another model at turns 3,4 and 5 and ride with me. So why should I take the Duet over 2 single Coryphee with slightly worse Stats (Df6, Mv5, and -1 to the ActionValue of the attacks)? It surely aren't "the power of dance" and "blade rush", right?

 

And I have to agree, that it feels a bit weird to dance apart and together in the same turn. It kind of feels like exploitation of rules, but I also think that it is meant this way. If it wasn't (and therefor would be changed through FAQ) I wouldn't hire the duet anymore since 1 or 2 single Coryphee would be the better choice for they can get upgrades (that don't get lost while dancing) and are minions!!! ;-D

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7 hours ago, Humphrey said:

I might unintentionally have crossed a line while stating my opinion. Maybe my bad English or lack of experience created a misunderstanding.

No offence implied. I feel free to think, that there is a loop hole in the functioning of bonus actions and replacement effects, if you can break up and reform the coryphee the same turn. You clearly have deeper insights than me concerning the balancing of the models and this mechanic, so I will accept and wait for a possible FAQ.

n. 🙂

No offense was taken. Your opinion is welcome and please feel free to discuss. 

 I took part in part of the beta testing, and there were rules changed because of the duet reforming in the same turn, so I know it was a known interaction and I am fairly sure was intended because it's really easy to have stopped it being possible. 

You are giving up your bonus action to gain 2 normal actions. By doing it this way rather than just giving it a bonus action to reactivate it does at least have to pass through a slightly more fragile stage. I can see it being a bit of a surprise when it first happens, but I'm sure it's not a rules abuse. 

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9 hours ago, Humphrey said:

Thanks for your opinion. I agree with you that unique mechanics are, what makes Malifaux an awesome game that I really enjoy. I might unintentionally have crossed a line while stating my opinion. Maybe my bad English or lack of experience created a misunderstanding.

I’ll leave Tara aside as she is (as the Mechanical Rider) clearly intended to do, what she does, as its printed on her card

No offence implied. I feel free to think, that there is a loop hole in the functioning of bonus actions and replacement effects, if you can break up and reform the coryphee the same turn. You clearly have deeper insights than me concerning the balancing of the models and this mechanic, so I will accept and wait for a possible FAQ.

Sidenote: 12 SS feels completely fine for a stat line with Df/ Mi 7 with nimble, agile and armour +2, even without shenanigans, but again, I may be mistaken. 🙂

Nah don't worry, it's ok to disagree. I don't know if the duet is too strong; i've not played with/versus him. But for what I see in the card, it doesn't looks broken; it's a good model, but nothing too crazy.

The stats are good but it has dissadvantages that may be used against it:

  • It is a single model which cost as 2: a good beater may kill 2 per 1 model if it is focused to death.
  • It has 10 health and cost 12 SS; making it more vulnerable to chip damage (conditions, black blood, hazarous terrain...)
  • For how the numbers are rounded in Malifaux, it would lose 1 hp if the duet splits when it has an odd number (for example, Duet 9 HP = 2 Coryphees of 4 Hp, and then a duet with 8 HP)
  • The split/join mechanic use the bonus action, making it more vulnerable to stunned and making nimble a non factor if you wan't to split/join it.
  • The negative states would also be carried over to the duet.
  • The enemy has 1 activation with the 2 coryphees very close to each other (to be efficient), any blast or shockwave would deal "double damage" to the duet. This may be avoided if the other player has the first activation and the duet is the last model activated.
  • The fast trick is cool, but you have to go OOK to get it and that's a lot of points (plus it's hard for the other model to keep up with a fast duet).

It's true the split/join mechanic isn't as clear as in other models, you need to know how the replace rules works quite well to see how that is inteded to work. But it's clearly intended and the model seem to has counterplay and be balanced around that mechanic. I wouldn't hire a duet for 12 points if the split/join mechanic weren't there; it'd need at least flurry and a higher damage track with a better ofensive trigger (Onslaught, Quick Reflexes or Shove Aside for example) minimum to worth its prize.

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On 9/5/2019 at 5:09 PM, Adran said:

They aren't fast. There are ways to make models fast, and the post was talking about how the duet could get 2 actions out of one use of fast. 

Off the top of my head I can only think of Hoffman, but I'm sure there are other ways. 

 

2 hours ago, Thedeadclaw said:

The duet is designed with the intent of that trick being used is the thing. It's more powerful in Puppets imho than Performers but in neither crew is it busted, because it was designed with the interaction in mind.

Thank you

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22 hours ago, Humphrey said:

I actually misinterpreted the way this would work. After discussing the issue with friend yesterday, I agree now that it’s a strong but not overly busted model. Thanks for correcting me though.

Replace is one of those rules that you really need to go through it once with the rule book in front of you following it step by step to understand it I think, so I expect several misunderstanding will occur.  Its also knowing what a thing does makes it a lot easier to face, and also having tried using a thing yourself to realise if there are a million hoops to jump through to make it do that awesome turn.

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