Starting with Marcus. Please help

[NAX3011]

Hi Guys.

 

I wanted to start with Marcus, but I havent touched him at m2e or the Beta so I really have no plan about him.

 

Please help me. What Models will I need?

Most of the time I would like to play him in Neverborn.

 

 

 

[Gaston]

https://thirdfloorwars.com/time-to-talk-about-marcus/

[werewolf-comics]

Recommend having 2 Cerberus.  You'll likely hire both in Neverborn and shift into one in Arcanists.  Neverborn gives you access to some really neat beasts like wisps, adze, corrupted hounds, and rougarou.  I haven't had much chance to play with him but he will be my focus crew for the next few weeks and I may be able to give a little more information later.  

[Ludvig]

Agree on the double cerberus! They're really flexible models. 

Wisps seem like very useful schemers that also manipulate enemy positioning so your cerberus can get their bonus for attacking lonely models (and hopefully avoid retaliation from the rest of the enemy crew if you put stealth on them). Wisps will make you want to get adze because of their abilities but they really shouldn't be killing models so unless you really like the look of adze I would hold of getting those. Eventually it will set you up nicely for the inevitable slide into Zoraida.

My usual advice to anyone is to not go overboard and buy everything. It is better to get a master box and one or two extra boxes to plug obvious holes and then try to play a lot with what you have. That way you notice which roles models can fill instead of buying twenty different models because they are theoretically slightly better in a certain scheme pool. 

TLDR: wisps and an extra cerberus should last you a long time. You are missing out on Myranda's shapechange options but maybe you could proxy a few models until you see what you actually like turning her into. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Ludvig solid advice for any crew!

[NAX3011]

On 7/19/2019 at 10:47 AM, Ludvig said:

Agree on the double cerberus! They're really flexible models. 

Wisps seem like very useful schemers that also manipulate enemy positioning so your cerberus can get their bonus for attacking lonely models (and hopefully avoid retaliation from the rest of the enemy crew if you put stealth on them). Wisps will make you want to get adze because of their abilities but they really shouldn't be killing models so unless you really like the look of adze I would hold of getting those. Eventually it will set you up nicely for the inevitable slide into Zoraida.

My usual advice to anyone is to not go overboard and buy everything. It is better to get a master box and one or two extra boxes to plug obvious holes and then try to play a lot with what you have. That way you notice which roles models can fill instead of buying twenty different models because they are theoretically slightly better in a certain scheme pool. 

TLDR: wisps and an extra cerberus should last you a long time. You are missing out on Myranda's shapechange options but maybe you could proxy a few models until you see what you actually like turning her into. 

 

First thank you all for you help.

 

As Zoraida and Titania are my most played master I really have all of the miniatures you told me except the corrupted hounds, but I use my Bultungins as proxys.

So my Beast are:

Whisps

Adze

Rougarous

Bandersnatch

Grooteslang

2 Cerberus

Razorspine Rattler

Bultungins (played as CH)

Cojo

Ferdinand Vogel + Beast Within

 

 

Did I miss something?

On 7/16/2019 at 8:57 PM, Gaston said:

https://thirdfloorwars.com/time-to-talk-about-marcus/

The Problem with the podcasts here is they have no Neverborn ones. The Marcus Podcast is nice but tend to be more arcanist section.

 

 

Greetings

[Adran]

2 hours ago, NAX3011 said:

 

The Problem with the podcasts here is they have no Neverborn ones. The Marcus Podcast is nice but tend to be more arcanist section.

 

That's largely because most current Marcus players were arcanist players because he wasn't duel faction before. Also Marcus changed his style quite a lot between the editions, so I imagine a lot of people are going to be learning him in Arcanists because they already have the stuff for that, and once they are comfortable with what Marcus does, expand out into neverborn.

So you could soon be one of the Neverborn Marcus experts as one of the first people to focus on Purple Marcus. Be sure to let people know what you find works.

[Gaston]

@NAX3011

Fair point.

I will say, I do adore Marcus. I legitimately think that his Keyword has the ability to compete in all the strategies, and that he has specific answers to some of the harder meta questions. However, I did find that there was a pretty good learning curve with him, especially with a new edition and limited resources.

Just a few things I found that may be helpful I hope:

--Chimera likes to pack hunt. The models work well in small groups self-buffing each other (kinda similar to MS&U). Consider: Myranda’s def bonus. Chimera strike. It helps to use Lures to isolate an enemy model then swarm and pounce.

--He is very good at positioning schemes due to speed, but will struggle with multiple schemes that require dropping markers. The AP efficiency isn’t there, unlike masters such as Lucius for example. Try to limit to only one marker scheme or look for position based ones.

--Use turn 1 to put out the upgrades, but then his main focus on subsequent turns should be commanding beasts and applying Adversary. In the games where I get him into the mix, I usually do well, the games where he doesn’t, I fare less well.

--Adversary, Adversary, Adversary. He has a lot of it, apply it, use it. 

--Deadly Pursuit occurs before scoring, so Hold Up, Take Prisoner, Outflank, Claim Jump can all be scored “by surprise”.

--A great many beasts have 2” melee range, engage at max threat range in order to reduce your opponent’s AP efficiency. 

Neverborn Specific

--Adze is quite strong with Teeth and Claws. It has a build in Ram, which will auto-trigger Puncture. A key set up is to have Marcus charge it in, cheat in a high card to hit. Then accomplice activate the Adze, Firefly with Rising Flames trigger. Now the next two attacks have a double positive to hit (Moth to Flame, Adversary) and a positive to damage (Puncture). 

--Bandersnatch is also fairly dirty. Armored Plates synergizes well when he buries (he isn’t moving so shielding happens). But even better is Thick Horns (the built in Mask auto-triggers Onslaught for 4 attacks).

--Inhuman Reflexes is legit, as basically all the beasts are Minions. Diving Charge and Blade Rush combine with Marcus making models charge to ping for extra damage without needing to flip any cards. This is also interesting with the Order Initiates, as they can charge through, ping with Blade Rush and Stampede for auto 2 damage. Finally, Butterfly Jump and Natural Camouflage are reaaaaally annoying.

--Use Doppleganger to apply Stalk Prey for the Cerberii. Or just use her as a stat 7 Cerberii.

--Support. Arcanists can get Soulstone Miners and Arcane Reservoir. Marcus burns cards like candy, so you can supplement this by cycling his an Myranda’s upgrades (and the Order Initiates) to generate draw, or you can pay in for Ancient Pact as well. I have tried Lilitu for Lure/card draw, but without much success, at Def 4 she tends to go down quickly.

--Black Blood Shaman: Two turns of spamming Focus to basically everything, then he grows up into a Mature Nephilim for fun and profit.

--If you pull and Adze, pull in Iggy as well. The Misery (Burning) ramps up the damage even more, and Arson is amazing for anti-scheming. 

 

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Gaston said:

--Bandersnatch is also fairly dirty. Armored Plates synergizes well when he buries (he isn’t moving so shielding happens). But even better is Thick Horns (the built in Mask auto-triggers Onslaught for 4 attacks).

Fun trick regarding Bandersnatch and Thick Horns, you can still charge while burred, so enjoy one of your attacks being at a positive(this will however prevent you from getting that shielded bonus from armored plates)

[NAX3011]

On 7/26/2019 at 9:30 PM, Gaston said:

@NAX3011

Fair point.

I will say, I do adore Marcus. I legitimately think that his Keyword has the ability to compete in all the strategies, and that he has specific answers to some of the harder meta questions. However, I did find that there was a pretty good learning curve with him, especially with a new edition and limited resources.

Just a few things I found that may be helpful I hope:

--Chimera likes to pack hunt. The models work well in small groups self-buffing each other (kinda similar to MS&U). Consider: Myranda’s def bonus. Chimera strike. It helps to use Lures to isolate an enemy model then swarm and pounce.

--He is very good at positioning schemes due to speed, but will struggle with multiple schemes that require dropping markers. The AP efficiency isn’t there, unlike masters such as Lucius for example. Try to limit to only one marker scheme or look for position based ones.

--Use turn 1 to put out the upgrades, but then his main focus on subsequent turns should be commanding beasts and applying Adversary. In the games where I get him into the mix, I usually do well, the games where he doesn’t, I fare less well.

--Adversary, Adversary, Adversary. He has a lot of it, apply it, use it. 

How could Marcus apply Adversary?

Only Cerberus has a Spell to get Asversary on enemies.

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, NAX3011 said:

How could Marcus apply Adversary?

Only Cerberus has a Spell to get Asversary on enemies.

One of the mutations gives adversary to anyone the model damages.

[NAX3011]

Paul Crockett, Ferdinand Vogel is nice to have too in the hireing collection.

[Holden]

I appreciated this post from weeks ago and now that I have about 10-12 games in with Marcus in M3E I do think/suspect he I see far more effective as Neverborn...seems the polite agreement with the Fae is more powerful than I originally thought.

Does anyone one have an opinion running non-beast versitiles with Marcus (doppelgänger, emissary etc.)?

 

[NAX3011]

Doppleganger may be to copy some spells with a 7stat of Cerberus, Cojo, Myranda or some other beasts. Emissray isnt worth in Marcus.

 

 

 

[Gaston]

Iggy can be an anti-schemer and synergizes well with Adze.

[out4egos]

2 sabertooths with inhuman reflexes... which includes butterfly jump.  Get rid of the razor spine . Add miranda.  Also cojo is a must give him inhuman if not both the sabers. Mole men make great scheme runners.  Also paul Crockett is a pretty solid support sniper that gives free attacks when your guys are in combat 

[Sharp_GT]

Does anyone use razorspine rattler(s)? Looking at them on paper they don't seem to offer any unique traits or value to the keyword, am I missing something?

[Ogid]

They seem situational but not useless. They are quite fast (mv6, unimpeded, pursuit + ambush), have poison, constriction + wicked and are one of the few beast with df6.

One way to use them is the poison, pair one of them with an Scorpius and take advantage of its abilities.

With their mobility they are quite fast, even without any mutation, they could be decent scheme runners (a sabertooth would be better, but you can only have 2 sabers and usually want them fighting other models).

In this same role, anti-scheme runners or to keep enemy models engaged; they have the mobility to intercept enemy runners and with Wicked + Constriction they could hit hard any model trying to get away from them or constriction alone means the other model cannot dissengage that easy. In this last case it's better to put the Razor in base to base; so a mv5 or less would be engaged after getting "moderate damage" in the dissengage, even if they could dissengage with the second action, deadly pursuit is there to engage again for free.

For the reasons above, they seem legit to try to score hold up their forces, quite decent with the armored plates mutation.

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, Ogid said:

In this same role, anti-scheme runners or to keep enemy models engaged; they have the mobility to intercept enemy runners and with Wicked + Constriction they could hit hard any model trying to get away from them or constriction alone means the other model cannot dissengage that easy. In this last case it's better to put the Razor in base to base; so a mv5 or less would be engaged after getting "moderate damage" in the dissengage, even if they could dissengage with the second action, deadly pursuit is there to engage again for free.

You may realise it, but just to be clear, if you use wicked to deal damage, you don't reduce the push distance at all. It is worth noting that the use of Wicked is optional, so you can choose to use it to reduce the push rather than damage. I think you realise this but my first read of your point wasn't sure.

The biggest problem for the rattler is that the best scheme runners have always been the ones that don't need to take the disengage action because they have an ability like leap or creep along that let them leave another way.

[Ogid]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

You may realise it, but just to be clear, if you use wicked to deal damage, you don't reduce the push distance at all. It is worth noting that the use of Wicked is optional, so you can choose to use it to reduce the push rather than damage. I think you realise this but my first read of your point wasn't sure.

The biggest problem for the rattler is that the best scheme runners have always been the ones that don't need to take the disengage action because they have an ability like leap or creep along that let them leave another way.

Ty, yep I realise, maybe I didn't explained clear enough. Having both options is nice; and can even be combined. First dissengage only constriction to reduce the push and keep them engaged, second one wicked cheating if possible for reposition (with the  the other player won't be able to cheat, so even with a medium card it should be possible) to deal some damage and still be in range to engage at the end of the turn with deadly pursuit.

The last point is quite fair, chasing a runner with leap, creep, risky... will be quite pointless. But even in this case, it's just about finding a model with good supporting/ranged abilities and bad mele and sending the razor to it. The Razor has a big ass that may be used to block LoS, so these supports are forced to move or try to dissengage and get bited.

[Sharp_GT]

10 hours ago, Adran said:

...The biggest problem for the rattler is that the best scheme runners have always been the ones that don't need to take the disengage action because they have an ability like leap or creep along that let them leave another way.

this is the issue I'm having with them. In the role they seem to be designed for they don't actually do anything that any other model could do; If I'm looking for more cerberus style action, the rougarou are better; for movement, bandersnatch is faster; scheming and anti scheming, doppleganger is better; and the one thing that they're supposed to be good at, trapping schemers, they don't actually do. 

Looking at what role they could fill, I'm at a loss.

[MrPieChee]

From the descriptions above, it seems like they would make good hunters of schemers?

I plan to use mine as a buddy for a Scorpious as mentioned above. They seem like a great pair, even if a bit pricey.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

for movement, bandersnatch is faster; scheming and anti scheming, doppleganger is better; and the one thing that they're supposed to be good at, trapping schemers, they don't actually do. 

mmm bandersnatch has some tricks, but unless you include Widow weaver or are talking about late game scenarios and reusing his webs, his mobility isn't that diferent.

Bander: 6+6+6(+2) (20 not unimpeded) vs Razor: 6+6+4+3 (19 unimpeded); but Razor has Deadly Pursuit and Ambush so he is able to drop 2 scheme markers per turn if needed and has constriction, the bander can't do that. However the bander has some very cool tricks with Marcus tho (crawl with armor to get the shielded or horns to get a built in onslaught).

And... how do you use the doppleganger to be better at scheming than a Razor? O.O

A razor isn't killy, but it is fast, sticky and has a big ass (to block LoS); kill things takes more resources than tie something; it may buy time to your other pieces by engaging backliners and putting the other player in the position of letting that model fight a losed battle or sending someone to help it. Throw one of these snakes with an armor upgrade to the backline later in the turn and activate it early the next turn to trigger the shielded and the other player has to make a hard choice.

I won't include 3, but 1 of them might worth it.

[Sharp_GT]

7 hours ago, Ogid said:

And... how do you use the doppleganger to be better at scheming than a Razor? O.O

Doppleganger has 'don't mind me' and defensive abilities. She doesn't do harness the leylines but being able to pick up explosives, or drop scheme markers for detonate charges and dig their graves is clutch. You have traditional schemers who are just fast, but you also should consider schemers who can operate in the middle of the board where it gets messy.

The rattler can really move, but looks pretty fragile. I guess I better throw it on the table and see how well it survives in the real world

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

Doppleganger has 'don't mind me' and defensive abilities. She doesn't do harness the leylines but being able to pick up explosives, or drop scheme markers for detonate charges and dig their graves is clutch. You have traditional schemers who are just fast, but you also should consider schemers who can operate in the middle of the board where it gets messy.

The rattler can really move, but looks pretty fragile. I guess I better throw it on the table and see how well it survives in the real world

Good points about the Doppleganger... I was thinking only in Breakthrough, power ritual and the like.

But yeah, the best way would be test it out in a few games, pick only 1 and see how it goes. But it's true that if you are going to send it to the middle of the other team, it'll need at least 1 defensive mutation (I'd pick armor for it)