Damaging Bury Question

[nosferatubgc]

Good evening,

My opponent's Killjoy has been killed and his Demise ability triggered.  He healed 4 and is Buried.  My question is if I deal 4 damage to him while he is buried with a Guild Marshall Recruiter does his Demise ability trigger again and he just Heals again and stay Buried or is he killed now.  Also add on question, if a Guild Marshall Recruiter has two enemies in base to base with him.  If successful can he Pine Box the two different enemy models or is it a one Buried model per turn effect?  Thank you for your time and patience.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, nosferatubgc said:

Also add on question, if a Guild Marshall Recruiter has two enemies in base to base with him.  If successful can he Pine Box the two different enemy models or is it a one Buried model per turn effect?

1.  Pine Box buries the target of the attack.  Doesn’t care how many other models are in range.

2.  You can use Pine Box and bury as many different enemy models as you can figure out ways to make the model take the action.

If you were in range of four models, it would take four successful attacks to bury all of them.

[Clement]

7 hours ago, nosferatubgc said:

Good evening,

My opponent's Killjoy has been killed and his Demise ability triggered.  He healed 4 and is Buried.  My question is if I deal 4 damage to him while he is buried with a Guild Marshall Recruiter does his Demise ability trigger again and he just Heals again and stay Buried or is he killed now.

Regarding your original question, I think this part of the buried rule saves you.  If Killjoy takes lethal damage while buried, since he can't be buried again his demise ability is ignored.

from buried section:

Buried models cannot be Buried. If a Buried model would be Buried by a game effect, it ignores that game effect

[Morgan Vening]

1 minute ago, Clement said:

Regarding your original question, I think this part of the buried rule saves you.  If Killjoy takes lethal damage while buried, since he can't be buried again his demise ability is ignored.

from buried section:

Buried models cannot be Buried. If a Buried model would be Buried by a game effect, it ignores that game effect

I think you might be right, but the underlined is unclear if it's referring to the entire effect, or just the Bury section.

The argument against is on pg 24, end of second para.
"When an active Ability goes into effect, resolve the effect step by step in the order it is listed on the Ability."

So, does Killjoy not die, heal 4, then have the game effect of being buried ignored? Or is the entire ability ignored?

It depends on if "step by step" references individual clauses, or if only full sentences happen at a time.

Weirdly, the text on pg 23 under Step 5 has clarifying wordage for Actions that it doesn't have for Abilities.
"The model performs the Action’s effects, as stated on the card, in the order they are listed. If any of an Action’s effects cannot be resolved, they are ignored."

If that same wording was used for Abilities, I'd think it more likely that the "ignores that game effect" part would only apply to the Bury itself.

[nosferatubgc]

Sorry still not sure clear with responses, does Killjoy when killed while buried does his Demise trigger again or does it get ignored since he is already buried?

 

 

[Morgan Vening]

10 hours ago, nosferatubgc said:

Sorry still not sure clear with responses, does Killjoy when killed while buried does his Demise trigger again or does it get ignored since he is already buried?

Sorry, it's because the rules aren't clear. Clement has a good argument, but there's an issue with the wordibg that I could see it working either way.

So, the answer,  for the moment is "Don'tknow. ".

[gozer]

On 7/15/2019 at 3:32 AM, Morgan Vening said:

I think you might be right, but the underlined is unclear if it's referring to the entire effect, or just the Bury section.

The argument against is on pg 24, end of second para.
"When an active Ability goes into effect, resolve the effect step by step in the order it is listed on the Ability."

So, does Killjoy not die, heal 4, then have the game effect of being buried ignored? Or is the entire ability ignored?

It depends on if "step by step" references individual clauses, or if only full sentences happen at a time.

Weirdly, the text on pg 23 under Step 5 has clarifying wordage for Actions that it doesn't have for Abilities.
"The model performs the Action’s effects, as stated on the card, in the order they are listed. If any of an Action’s effects cannot be resolved, they are ignored."

If that same wording was used for Abilities, I'd think it more likely that the "ignores that game effect" part would only apply to the Bury itself.

@Morgan Vening, this might be a solution: Check out  "Actions Generated by Effects" rule on pg 34.

"Many effects in Malifaux, (such as Actions, Abilities, and Triggers) can cause a model to take an Action. When this happens, the new Action is always resolved after the previous Action is completely resolved, including any “After Resolving” effects, but before any other new Action can be taken. Actions generated in this way follow the normal sequence for Actions and do not count against a model’s Action limit."

That last sentence is the kicker. Killjoy's ability causes him to take an action and since abilities which cause models to take an action "...follow the normal sequence for actions..." it would stand to reason that Killjoy does not die, heals 4, and finally the bury effect is ignored since he is already buried.

 

[Mycellanious]

On 7/15/2019 at 6:45 PM, nosferatubgc said:

Sorry still not sure clear with responses, does Killjoy when killed while buried does his Demise trigger again or does it get ignored since he is already buried?

 

 

Assuming he hasnt used his demise this turn right? Demise can only be used once per turn.

But assuming Killjoy was buried late last turn and attacked early this turn, I'd say that because you try to resolve as much of the action as you can he heals and stays buried

[gozer]

5 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Assuming he hasnt used his demise this turn right? Demise can only be used once per turn.

But assuming Killjoy was buried late last turn and attacked early this turn, I'd say that because you try to resolve as much of the action as you can he heals and stays buried

Where does it say Demise can only be used once per turn? I don't see anything on Demise in the rules manual and Killjoy's ability doesn't have that limit.

[Adran]

16 hours ago, gozer said:

@Morgan Vening, this might be a solution: Check out  "Actions Generated by Effects" rule on pg 34.

"Many effects in Malifaux, (such as Actions, Abilities, and Triggers) can cause a model to take an Action. When this happens, the new Action is always resolved after the previous Action is completely resolved, including any “After Resolving” effects, but before any other new Action can be taken. Actions generated in this way follow the normal sequence for Actions and do not count against a model’s Action limit."

That last sentence is the kicker. Killjoy's ability causes him to take an action and since abilities which cause models to take an action "...follow the normal sequence for actions..." it would stand to reason that Killjoy does not die, heals 4, and finally the bury effect is ignored since he is already buried.

 

Except Killjoys Demise ability doesn't cause actions at all.

I think Demise (Immortal) is a Bury effect, because part of the effect is to bury the model. As such if Killjoy is buried you can't use bury effects on him, so whilst buried he can't use his demise.  I think you should ignore the whole effect, rather than just the part of the effect that buries the model. The fact that the effect does things before it buries him doesn't stop it being a bury effect, and as such you ignore the effect entirely

Buried models cannot be Buried. If a Buried model would be Buried by a game effect, it ignores that game effect.

I don't think you should progress through as much of the effect as you can until you reach a section which you can't do so you ignore from then on.

 

 

[gozer]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Except Killjoys Demise ability doesn't cause actions at all.

I think Demise (Immortal) is a Bury effect, because part of the effect is to bury the model. As such if Killjoy is buried you can't use bury effects on him, so whilst buried he can't use his demise.  I think you should ignore the whole effect, rather than just the part of the effect that buries the model. The fact that the effect does things before it buries him doesn't stop it being a bury effect, and as such you ignore the effect entirely

Buried models cannot be Buried. If a Buried model would be Buried by a game effect, it ignores that game effect.

I don't think you should progress through as much of the effect as you can until you reach a section which you can't do so you ignore from then on.

 

 

Hmm, after re-reading what constitutes an "Action" I think you are right - the Demise ability creates an Effect, not an Action.

The crux of this issue is whether Action or Abilities can only generate a singular effect or if those Actions and Abilities can generate multiple effects.

However, I think I have an answer to that question per the "Sequential Effects" rule on pg 34:

Quote

SEQUENTIAL EFFECTS

Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves. In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect. Additional effects are then resolved in the order they were generated, after any effects which had been previously generated have resolved.

This rule seems to support the idea that Actions and Abilities can generate multiple individual effects that literally progress in sequential order - fully resolving each before moving onto the next. This means the heal 4 effect would resolve before we check to see if the bury effect can occur.

This makes the most sense as it follows the same resolution process as actions.

[Kadeton]

10 hours ago, gozer said:

This rule seems to support the idea that Actions and Abilities can generate multiple individual effects that literally progress in sequential order - fully resolving each before moving onto the next. This means the heal 4 effect would resolve before we check to see if the bury effect can occur.

This makes the most sense as it follows the same resolution process as actions.

I kind of agree, except that in this case I think it produces a result that seems bad for the health of the game. Killjoy should (IMO) be able to be killed via damage while Buried, because attacks that target Buried models are rare and highly specialised, and should have value in this situation.

If that requires a generous interpretation of what constitutes a "Bury effect", then that's what I'd go with. In general, I'd suggest that anything which is a single sentence could be treated as a single "effect" - in the case of Immortal Soil, that would prevent it from working while Buried. If it had instead been worded as "After this model is killed, it Heals 4. Then, Bury this model." then each effect could be resolved separately. But "it Heals 4 and is Buried" can be both a heal effect and a bury effect.

[Adran]

14 hours ago, gozer said:

The crux of this issue is whether Action or Abilities can only generate a singular effect or if those Actions and Abilities can generate multiple effects.

However, I think I have an answer to that question per the "Sequential Effects" rule on pg 34:

This rule seems to support the idea that Actions and Abilities can generate multiple individual effects that literally progress in sequential order - fully resolving each before moving onto the next. This means the heal 4 effect would resolve before we check to see if the bury effect can occur.

This makes the most sense as it follows the same resolution process as actions.

I don't think the sequential effects paragraph is written to say what you are trying to get it to say. Whilst I do agree you will read down the sentence and do the parts in the order they are written I do not see it as the demise immortal is 1 effect, the healing another effect and the bury is a third effect.

I think the paragraph is written more for abilities that have effects when things occur, such as Mantra effects, So you will declare the concentrate action, then after is completes that action you go through the Mantra abilities it has generated one at a time completing each one fully before getting to the next one. And should any of those effects create other effects you will carry on resolving them in the order they were generated.

[gozer]

8 hours ago, Adran said:

I don't think the sequential effects paragraph is written to say what you are trying to get it to say. Whilst I do agree you will read down the sentence and do the parts in the order they are written I do not see it as the demise immortal is 1 effect, the healing another effect and the bury is a third effect.

Interpreting the rules in the way you are suggesting has implications for other Abilities. For example, take a look at "Life Leech":

Quote

When an enemy model starts it's activation within 4(aura), this model Heals 1 and the enemy model suffers 1 damage.

Using your interpretation, if - for any reason - the model with Life Leech was unable to use the "and the enemy suffers 1 damage" then it would also be unable to Heal 1 that happened BEFORE it in sequence? Does that really make sense? Would you really rule that if the 1 damage could not resolve against an enemy that the Life Leech model would be unable to heal?

This also has implications for many Actions with multiple effects too. For example, look at the "Burn Out" Trigger on Candy's "Glimpse of Insanity":

Quote

Target suffers 2 damage and gains Fast.

By your interpretation if the target already had Fast then it wouldn't take 2 damage.

However, I would respectfully disagree and say the 2 damage the target suffers would occur and has nothing to do with the second effect of gaining (or not gaining) Fast. This is identical to how Killjoy would Heal 4 and that heal effect has nothing to do with whether he is (or isn't) Buried.

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, gozer said:

Interpreting the rules in the way you are suggesting has implications for other Abilities. For example, take a look at "Life Leech":

Using your interpretation, if - for any reason - the model with Life Leech was unable to use the "and the enemy suffers 1 damage" then it would also be unable to Heal 1 that happened BEFORE it in sequence? Does that really make sense? Would you really rule that if the 1 damage could not resolve against an enemy that the Life Leech model would be unable to heal?

This also has implications for many Actions with multiple effects too. For example, look at the "Burn Out" Trigger on Candy's "Glimpse of Insanity":

By your interpretation if the target already had Fast then it wouldn't take 2 damage.

However, I would respectfully disagree and say the 2 damage the target suffers would occur and has nothing to do with the second effect of gaining (or not gaining) Fast. This is identical to how Killjoy would Heal 4 and that effect has nothing to do with whether he is (or isn't) Buried.

The rules tell us that the above doesn't work that way.

As I hunt through the rule book it may be that we do need to do break down the Demise effect as something that creates 2 more effects, the heal effect and the bury effect, because the Apply results section of resolving Actions does seem to do that to actions.

The model performs the Action’s effects, as stated on the card, in the order they are listed. If any of an Action’s effects cannot be resolved, they are ignored.

But the Abilities section does tell us

When an active Ability goes into effect, resolve the effect step by step in the order it is listed on the Ability

Which would still suggest Demise is 1 effect, that is both a healing effect and a burying effect and since we are told to ignore burying effects when we are buried we would ignore it.

The ignoring phrasing of the actions lets us ignore parts of the action, the burying one say to ignore the whole thing.

[gozer]

51 minutes ago, Adran said:

Which would still suggest Demise is 1 effect, that is both a healing effect and a burying effect and since we are told to ignore burying effects when we are buried we would ignore it.

The ignoring phrasing of the actions lets us ignore parts of the action, the burying one say to ignore the whole thing.

I agree with everything you said except this part. I'm glad we've dug down to the core of the question!

I can't find anywhere in the book that states (or even suggests) that Abilities are game effects. Abilities like Demise create effects - they aren't effects themselves. Demise is an Ability that causes two effects: a heal effect and a bury effect.

The crux of the issue is in the wording of the Bury rule. Here is the entire paragraph:

Quote

Buried models cannot be Buried. If a Buried model would be Buried by a game effect, it ignores that game effect.

The interpretation you are suggesting would be that Demise (an Ability) is also a "game effect". 

The interpretation I am suggesting is that Demise is not a game effect by itself, but only an Ability that gives access two game effects (a heal effect and a bury effect).

So, the question we need the answer to, in order to discover what interpretation is correct is:

"Are Abilities themselves considered game effects"?

If Abilities are game effects, your interpretation is correct. If Abilities are not game effects then my interpretation is correct.

More broadly speaking, I'd love an actual definition of what a "game effect" is. The rules manual mentions "game effect" 38 times but never defines exactly what it is.

[Adran]

I quoted the section from abilities in my previous post, in a different size. Looking now on my phone it looks the same so you couldn't have told it was a rules quote

1 hour ago, Adran said:

When an active Ability goes into effect, resolve the effect step by step in the order it is listed on the Ability

I'm away from my computer so I can't tell you the page, but it's a cut and paste from the rules. 

[gozer]

44 minutes ago, Adran said:

I quoted the section from abilities in my previous post, in a different size. Looking now on my phone it looks the same so you couldn't have told it was a rules quote

I'm away from my computer so I can't tell you the page, but it's a cut and paste from the rules. 

Hmm...then if an Ability can go "into effect", it's implied that Abilities are game effects, in which case Killjoy's Demise is a game effect and the entire Demise game effect would be ignored due to the Bury rules.