M3e Henchman Hardcore- Outcasts

[Alerteddonkey42]

I have some henchman hardcore games coming up and I wanted to get some feedback on the crews I am contemplating and see if there was anything in obviously good in terms of henchmen hardcore that I had overlooked. I also didn't see a 3e henchmen hardcore thread for Outcasts. 

For me, two henchmen immediately come to mind of good leaders of this game type: Rusty Alyce and Hannah Lovelace

Rusty Alyce puts out a great deal of damage from range and has walk 6. Her execute trigger can pressure the opponent's hand with the reduced hand size of 4 for this game mode. She is also survivable with armor+1 and a heal (not an amazing heal, but a heal nonetheless). Here is a Rusty crew I was considering:

Rusty Alyce (9)

Marlena Webster (8)

Pride (7)

Hodgepodge Effigy (4)

-Effigy of Fate (2)

The downside to this crew is that you are left with no soulstones and it is a crew that likes to bubble. The upside is that your crew is relatively tanky and has a decent number of heals. You shouldn't be giving up many points to vendetta or assassinate. 

Another Rusty Crew: 

Rusty Alyce (9)

Midnight Stalker (8)

Scavenger (6)

Hodgepodge Effigy (4)

-Effigy of Fate (2)

1 ss cache

This crew has a bit more mobility with the stalker and the place trigger on the scavenger. However, it has a harder time dealing with defensive tech like armor and shielded. This crew still has a lot of heals between Rusty's self heal, the effigy/emissary, and the scavenger trigger. With a limited hand, it is hard to guarantee the leap on midnight stalker and it may be more difficult to get the trigger you want on the scavenger. 

Hannah Lovelace also brings damage and survivability as your leader. On top of this, she has arcane reservoir to bring you hand size to 5 and can eat away at your opponent's resources with counterspell aura. Now, I don't play Freikorp nearly as much as other keywords within Outcasts, so forgive me if this suggested crew does not seem great. 

Hannah Lovelace (10)

Midnight Stalker (8)

Freikorp Engineer (6)

Hodgepodge Effigy (4)

-Effigy of Fate (2)

With Hannah as your leader and assassinate in the pool the bonus action on the engineer just seems too good to pass up on. Heal, cycle a card, and give Hannah shielded +2 with the possibility of more (focus+1 or concealment). I think that the Freikorp librarian could be very good here as well. She is tanky and brings another heal to the crew. I like adding the stalker because he delivers a bomb extremely efficiently and then hunts any of the opponent's models that are trying to scheme. I also felt that the crew could use some mobility. 

Now for a crew a bit more "out there." I was trying to figure out if the Obliteration keyword could field a good henchman hardcore crew. The henchmen for the keyword are Aionus and Scion of the Void. I don't think that Aionus would do enough for his cost to justify taking him in this game mode. This leaves Scion of the Void. Scion has a couple of things going for it. It can be kept safe from harm by burying it, it has a defensive trigger to reduce damage, and it can attack through any Obliteration minions you take. There is a potential for it to heal also, but that requires a trigger on a stat 5 attack. It can score Vendetta very efficiently (Vendetta only says you cannot select an enemy leader. As I read it, you can use your leader for Vendetta). The diffusion trigger is very good in this game mode. It makes your attack hit hard and eats away at the opponent's hand. The downside is that the Scion will hurt itself by taking actions while buried and essentially give away an assassinate point for free. Unburying the scion before the end of the game is important and may be difficult. Here is the crew I started considering: 

Scion of the Void (6)

Nothing Beast (9)

Void Hunter (7)

Void Hunter (7)

1 ss

I like the basic concept of this crew. There are a lot of terrifying models and incorporeal. Glimpse the void triggers are everywhere and between these triggers (built in on the void hunters), terrifying duels, and needing to avoid gaining fast (which can't benefit the enemy leader but will help the Obliteration crew) your opponent's resources can be stretched thin. If I took Talos instead of the Nothing beast I wouldn't be losing much and I could then take Servant of the Dark Powers on Scion of the Void. This could help to keep the Scion healthy as it damages itself. The nothing beast does benefit from the enemy having fast though and its stats are better than the stats on Talos. Higher mobility on the Nothing Beast is important. I don't know. I seems like this crew has some stuff going for it but there are some glaring flaws. Let me know what you think. Really I just want this crew to work out because I like the paint job on my Scion of the Void. 

Here are some quick thoughts on other henchmen that I haven't put as much effort into creating crews for:

Mad Dog Brackett: A good shooter that can get through the armor on enemy models. It's unfortunate that he cannot benefit from "life of crime" in this game mode. 

Montressor: A tanky henchman with terrifying, hard to wound, and Demise(Eternal). He also has access to an execute trigger on one of his attacks. If you pump a few heals into him, it will be extremely hard to take him down. 

Nyx: He has incorpeal and a built in way to heal. A large pulse with a high WP duel helps to build up blight and get more healing done. I'm not sure what the rest of the crew would need to look like to get good work out of blight. He can stop opponents from interacting within 6 inches. This can help to prevent bomb placement. 

Arik: Decently tanky with Armor+2. He can output damage in melee. 

Taelor: Hits hard with stat 7 and has decent mobility with rush and battle tempo. Ruthless is pretty good for preserving your cards. 

Barbaros: Decently tanky between regen and armor+1. He has a decent melee attack and challenge can really be inconvenient for the opponent. The surprise of bringing nephilim while playing Outcasts can be good. 

So, what types of lists are other people running/contemplating? Am I putting too much emphasis on models that can heal? Do you think the effigy with the upgrade is worth it (there is a thread discussing this topic, but I figured this is a bit of a different scenario)? It can be very good for vendetta, but it is also extremely obvious (though, you could bluff with the effigy and actually take it on another model).  

 

[Jesy Blue]

Don't sleep on Arik's Gravity Well.  It stops flying charges.

Also, HH rules states that even the leader stays at 2 AP, so Mad Dog's "Life Of Crime" will work.

Barbaros and 3 Young Nephilim are HILARIOUS!!!

[Maniacal_cackle]

I loved Henchmen Hardcore as a ressers player. One thing I have to recommend is having a really clear plan with your list as to how you're scoring points. Killing the enemy team is all well and good, but that's only half of your potential points. The points are fast and furious in this. You need some sort of plan for plant explosives. Here are two basic plans:

1. Planting five explosives.

Having a crew that is all relatively mobile (remember, everyone has a bomb), and good at dodging the enemy and getting your bombs down. Remember you start in wedge formation, so you will have to do some fancy footwork to dodge the enemy. Also good if you're able to maneuver to snag your opponent's explosives and run away with them after planting. Make sure to have a plan for how you'll guard your explosives!

2. Planting 2-3 explosives.

Having a slower crew planting 2-3 explosives gives you a lot more leeway in how you get your explosives points, but does mean you have to hard-out deny your opponent AND be confident of getting scheme points. A crew that is good at hunting down the opponent is key here, as is a crew capable of taking a beating. Also good if you're able to kill your opponent's models before they drop their explosives, inherently limiting what they can do.

My (ressers) approach is to take Philip & the Nanny, Archie, and two crooligans. This allows me to deploy 3 explosives on turn one if the enemy isn't pressuring me, and also gives me massive combat potential. I swap between plan 1 and plan 2 depending on the matchup (as well as a few others). My henchmen having manipulative and being able to dish out two slows a turn means I can really punish people that fully commit to the assassinate plan.

[Alerteddonkey42]

2 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Also, HH rules states that even the leader stays at 2 AP, so Mad Dog's "Life Of Crime" will work

Good to know. I guess I was confused by the wording. The document says, "Leaders have an action limit of 2 instead of 3." The use of the word "limit" is what threw me off. 

2 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Barbaros and 3 Young Nephilim are HILARIOUS!!!

I will definitely have to try this!

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Here are two basic plans

Good insight. I'll try to tailor the crews to this kind of a strategy more. I could see a Rusty crew with 2 necropunks and a mobile beater being pretty good. Maybe the midnight stalker or Barbaros. That crew could plant a decent number of bombs and output some damage. Vendetta may be hard though. I do like the challenge that henchman hardcore presents. 

[Jesy Blue]

So I found a universal work around to the Plant Explosives bombing: Crossroads Seven.

For example, I took Pride, Lust, Greed, and Wrath (because those are the only 4 I have), then put Servant of Dark Powers on Wrath.  Since they are all Henchmen, they can carry up to 2 bombs, so Wrath has none, Lust has 1, everyone else has 2. I run Wrath at the bad guys, he's got a couple of self heals and terrifying, and every time they hurt Wrath within 6" they'll get a Sin Token.  The other 3 just concentrate on planting the Strategy Markers and giving each other Focus by just existing and if anyone gets close, you use the Sin Tokens Wrath gave his life for to wreck them.

I don't know if there are enough cheap non-minions to get around everyone can carry 2 Bombs, but it probable will involve Malifaux Child who's now an Enforcer.

[Gnomezilla]

10 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Barbaros and 3 Young Nephilim are HILARIOUS!!!

...for the opponent, maybe. Don’t try it into Arcanists. Barbaros is not, repeat not, a tank on his own merits. Fly with Me is respectable speed but none of those can use it on one another! The Barbaros I faced at least brought a variety of sizes in the mature nephilim.

[CrimsonWraith]

I think your Scion list definitely has merit and was thinking of trying it myself. It’s decently fast, and could be the one time you manage to bury you opponent’s entire crew. Unburying the Scion could be tricky, but you can use him on the table and use Vanish only if needed to hang onto wounds for Assassinate.

The document I saw does say action limit, so that does imply can’t use fast. It depends how TOs run it, only gets 2 actions or can only take 2 actions.

[Alerteddonkey42]

7 hours ago, CrimsonWraith said:

I think your Scion list definitely has merit and was thinking of trying it myself. It’s decently fast, and could be the one time you manage to bury you opponent’s entire crew. Unburying the Scion could be tricky, but you can use him on the table and use Vanish only if needed to hang onto wounds for Assassinate.

The document I saw does say action limit, so that does imply can’t use fast. It depends how TOs run it, only gets 2 actions or can only take 2 actions.

The next biggest problem I see with it is that you can't drop a bomb turn one. This is a problem because you can start scoring turn 1 in henchman hardcore and I think that most players will try to leap in and drop bombs turn 1 putting you behind. 

[Jesy Blue]

 If you want a guaranteed 1st turn strategy point, Bishop with Servant of Dark Powers.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

The next biggest problem I see with it is that you can't drop a bomb turn one. This is a problem because you can start scoring turn 1 in henchman hardcore and I think that most players will try to leap in and drop bombs turn 1 putting you behind. 

I mostly agree with this, but also note that a viable strategy is to plan to deny your opponent throughout the game. If your opponent only gets bombs on turns 1, 2, and 3, and you get bombs on 3, 4, and 5, you're equal on points. In general earlier is better, but there's some viable strats that go the other way (I suspect. So far I've only played the bomb rush strategy as it's what fits my crew).

[Alerteddonkey42]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

 If you want a guaranteed 1st turn strategy point, Bishop with Servant of Dark Powers.

I suppose a void hunter with servant of the dark powers could also work. It would get the +1 to terrifying also. I'll play around this the ss cost of the crew a bit. 

[CrimsonWraith]

Or bury a Hunter, use other Hunter or NB(or both) to move forward and Stutter one of their activated models. Hunter pops out, buries anchor, drops explosive. I feel the smaller hand size is going to empower Glimpse, one way or the other.

[Alerteddonkey42]

Tried a couple of crews to mixed success. 

Scion of the void

Void hunter

Void hunter

Nothing beast

This crew the problems I was concerned about initially. It ate all of my opponent's cards from their hand, but the void hunters don't take hits as well as I would like. The scion really needs to be buried to do good things but then it is hurting itself and you give away assassinate. It was a fun concept and, but needs some tuning. Played against a crew led by Kang and lost. 

Rusty Alyce

Midnight stalker

Pride

Hodgepodge effigy

This crew worked much better. You really can't deny the effectiveness of Rusty's shooting. I got execute to go off and auto kill an illuminated. Pride and the effigy were fine. The midnight stalker did work and I am thoroughly impressed by the model. He couldn't leap every turn (small hand and he needs a suit), but he could get fast pretty easily and was annoying for my opponent to take out. He was also effective at hunting the opponent's models down and provided a bit of card cycling. It's very hard for the opponent to pressure him enough to actually put him down through demise(eternal). Won against a crew led by Gwenyth. 

Hannah

Midnight stalker

Freikorp engineer

Hodgepodge effigy with effigy upgrade

This crew was very effective. Arcane reservoir was very helpful. The stalker and engineer both let you cycle cards. The stalker was still amazing and managed to hunt down the firestarter. You are much more likely to have the stalker leap with this crew. In this game I discovered that the maim trigger is great. The engineer was great. She handed out shielded, healing, and focus with just her bonus action. She us pretty good at vendetta since you can drop a ram with tools for the job and then her gun is 12 inches with min 3. Melee has a trigger to ignore armor. Hannah was great for arcane reservoir, tankiness, great damage output, and ability to pressure the opponent's resources with the counterspell aura and glimpse trigger on her ranged attack. Won against a Carlos-led crew. 

I'll have to try some more henchman leaders. I actually think barbaros shows a lot of promise. I just need to find the right crew. I'll probably include the midnight stalker in a lot of future lists. I've also been told that (not just in this thread) that Arik is better than I give him credit for and I should try him out. 

 

[Nikodemus]

On 7/14/2019 at 9:42 PM, CrimsonWraith said:

The document I saw does say action limit, so that does imply can’t use fast. It depends how TOs run it, only gets 2 actions or can only take 2 actions.

Seems pretty clear that you can use Fast.

Action Limit, as defined on page 21 of the rules pdf (under "Activation Phase"):

Quote

Models may take up to two Actions during their Activation, save for Leaders and Masters, who can take up to three Actions. This is referred to as a model's Action Limit.

 

[CrimsonWraith]

Yep. I must have been going off an old wording or just confused. The limit to 3 actions is in Fast, so you can totally give 3 actions to your henchman.

[NoisyAssassin]

I'm planning for Adepticon, and settled on Rusty Alyce (9) for one of the HH events. Two slots are going to Necropunks (5 each) for pretty much auto-dropping 2 bombs T1 (only a black joker on leap should stop them). Kind of stuck on the last spot on the roster though. Options I'm thinking of:

Desolation Engine (10) and 1ss - With effective min 4 damage (using Necrotic Decay) and a built in tome for Unmade this guy is a pretty solid beater. The lowered hand size in HH means his flurry will compete with Alyce's rapid fire and aetheric healing for discards though. 10 health, hard to wound, terrifying 12 and a demise ability should make it decently hard to score the 2nd point of Vendetta against him, although with only Def 3 I suspect he'll give up at least the first point most games though. He also costs the most out of any of the options, and will allow anyone to declare Vendetta against him. Also I already have this model ordered, which is a plus. 

Ashes and Dust (9) and 2ss - The second beater option. Enemies won't be punished for attacking it, and it has less defensive tech than Desolation Engine, but it does have Def 6, which is nice. It's also fast enough that it could drop a bomb T1 if it wants to. Big downside is that HH disallows summoning, so I'd only get the Ashen Core when it dies. I kinda hate this model, but might be able to convert it to something nice.

Barbaros (9) and 2ss - A beater similar to the Desolation Engine who also punishes enemies for attacking him in melee; black blood could be a double edged sword if someone on the other side can target him in the deployment zone though. Regen + armor should hopefully keep him alive. 

Marlena Webster (8) and 3ss - She seems a little odd in that there's nothing she's exceptional at here. Not particularly tanky, not great offence, but she might actually get to activate steadfast protector in this format, and could help keep Alyce alive. Her model is amazing, but stands out like a sore thumb in this crew. I'd like to make a proxy using a slate ridge mauler as the base for the bear, but that's not allowed under the GG0 guidelines

Hans (8) and 3ss - If deployed at the tip of the triangle, he should be able to reach out and touch someone T1 without moving (at least some games; depends on terrain). Ruthless will be nice, as I suspect terrifying will be a popular choice of defensive tech. At only 8 stones he could potentially declare Vendetta instead of leaving it to a Necropunk. Downsides are that he's a bit squishy, won't want to spend much time moving, and will pretty much never drop a bomb. His kit doesn't release until Feb, and the event is in March though, so may not be available.

Drachen Trooper (8+1) and 2ss - Similar to Hans, he's ranged support, but can't target the enemy deployment zone without walking. What he CAN do is get an auto blast on his attack, which could be very nice in the clumped up deployment that this format encourages. All the same downsides as Hans though. I can get this model, but would have to buy the whole Von Shill box for him.

 

Any pros or cons I'm missing on the options above? Thoughts on what would fill out the crew best? Some other option that could be standout here (I've dismissed Midnight Stalker as an option because 3 leaps is a LOT to support with a smaller hand, and the Necropunks already cover fast models to drop bombs).

[touchdown]

Played a game with:

Mad Dog Bracket

Sue

Johan

Bandido

I got a little lucky with both my opponent's list and my flips but I just shot him off the table. Bandido dropped a marker for Bracket and using fast he killed his Whiskey Golem in 1 activation. In Wedge Deployment, Johan's slowness isn't a big deal. Sue and Johan locked down the middle while the Bandido and Bracket took one side. He had models on the other side but once he dropped a couple strategy markers he couldn't do anything else. I shot a little too well not getting the 1st point for Vendetta or Assassinate but ended 6-2 so I can't complain.

1 SS seems fine for this crew. Bracket has the trigger he needs built in. So you're probably just doing a damage reduction once.

Generally, Life of Crime seems even more useful in HH. With both crews having essentially the same and equal number of AP moving one from a 5 stone model to a 9 stone model is huge.

 

Two other lists I want to try:

Rusty Alyce

Marlena Webster

2x Necropunk

Great scheming, great at anti-assassination. Marlena's self heal is good so should be able to limit vendetta to 1 point, and excellent anti-scheming. Spend those stones on Execute and really stretch your opponent's 4 card hand

 

Montresor

Hanged

2x Dead Outlaw

A really tough crew with solid synergy. Won't be able to outrun the other crew but I don't think they'll want to fight you.

 

Also Pride seems really good in this format as anti opponent having cards.

[NoisyAssassin]

I've strongly considered exactly the same Montresor list as well. Monty can let both outlaws charge on his turn, then they can each charge again and either both drop bombs or one drops and one shoots. Hanged or Jaakuna could equally fill out the last slot, and each look to have strengths and weaknesses they bring. Haven't gone for it due to needing 3 different boxes but it looks amazing as long as terrain doesn't bog you down or block sight lines too much.

[NoisyAssassin]

Tried out my list of Alyce, Deso Engine, and 2x Necropunk tonight.

First game opponent brought Mad Dog, Bandido, Sue, and a Prospector. Necros both jumped up and dropped bombs, Sue moved up to shoot one of them, but ended up in range of Alyce so took a hit, and Bandido and Mad Dog shot at the other. Prospector mined a stone then failed to entice a Punk. Deso moved up, then went first T2 and charged Mad Dog, bringing him to half health. Opponent ended up scooping midway through T2, as it was clear that I would have a point for Assassinate, and 2 for the strat, while he wouldn't have scored anything. A lot of unlucky flips for him, but it was also clear that his crew didn't have a good plan for scoring points, and I got to see some of what my models can do.

Luckily, that game was quick enough that he could go back to the drawing board for a game 2. This time it was Mad Dog, Bandido, Convict Gunslinger, and Freikcorps Librarian. He won initiative this time, which seems to be very important for shooting crews in this format. I jumped with a Necro to place a bomb, and he double moved the Bandido. Deso then ran up to act as a distraction, and Gunslinger + Mad Dog ended up downgrading it to an Abomination just past the centerline. Alyce didn't have a good shot, so moved and focused. Librarian tried to heal the damage the Deso's Unmade triggers caused, but biffed both actions. T2 the Convict accidentally killed the Abomination with mod damage (it was his vendetta target), then got tied up by an angry Necropunk. The other Punk tangled with the Bandido and stopped her from dropping a bomb. Mad Dog tried to kill it to free her up, but whiffed one attack, leaving it on 2 health. Librarian healed Mad Dog, and Alyce put a bullet in him, so that was a wash. T3 the Necropunks decided to be MVPs, with one killing the Bandido and the other taking out the Convict. At this point my opponent still hadn't dropped a bomb and couldn't score anything for Vendetta, so he scooped again. 

Overall I'm pretty happy with the crew! Desolation Engine is the clear weak point though(A&D would be both better and cheaper I think, but I can't stomach the model). Might try out Barbaros in its place, but with Terrifying 12 and functionally 14 HP (after factoring in Demise) it takes a lot of AP and resources to kill. Alyce + Punks are strong enough that a giant threatening distration in the last slot feels okay me. 

[ebolazaire]

A&D won't be able to reform if I understand it correctly as it wont be able to summon the Dust Storm?

Barbaros might be the better pick - or playing the Deso defensively focusing on the healing triggers instead of the killing triggers?

[touchdown]

You can't reform but you still get a very fast model with good stats and still get the replace with ashen core

[ebolazaire]

The speed itself is actually a very good argument for it

[NoisyAssassin]

Another possibly interesting option: what about hiring Mad Dog as the 4th slot? He'd be 10 stones, but you'd get a second model with a min 3 gun, which is pretty scary. Only problem is nothing with a solid melee attack, so certain crews getting up in your face could be bad news.

[touchdown]

You could save a stone with Sue who has Crit Strike built in for min 3 and 12" range and +flip lets you essentially ignore friendly fire. Just as effective in melee (maybe more with his auras).

I think it depends if you want blasts, ignore armor or plan to use Life of Crime

[NoisyAssassin]

 Sue looks kinda squishy, but otherwise like a good choice. Ring of Fire + Gunfighter certainly makes him better than Mad Dog if he gets stuck engaged. Now if only eBay and Google Shopping would turn up a single copy for sale...