Exploding So Hard You Live: Drache Troopers and Servant of Dark Powers

[Kharnage]

I'm not sure what the order on all of this is, but I know when Nekima dies, if she black bloods on something and kills it, it'll heal her out of being dead. 
With Drache Troopers, let's say I stacked on some mines, and he explodes on death, dealing 4 damage and 2 burning to models near him, killing a nearby model, and he has the Servant of Dark Powers upgrade. Servant of Dark Powers says when he kills things, he heals 2. Is he now alive? 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Putting my interpretation aside for a moment, how do you reconcile this with the part of Timing right before damage:

That's not even part of the sequential events section, it's just general ability timing. I'd see this as black blood 'happening' after all the damage applied to Nekima has been completed. Or are you suggesting that the wording of damage implies it is an exception to this general order?

I see section 5 and 6 of damage merely providing some guidance on what order all the effects will happen in after damage is complete. It's a way to take a bunch of things that trigger from the same damage (black blood, demise, corpse marker) and sort them into sequential rather than simultaneous APNAP order.

There's no need to reconcile it. Damage timing encompeses everything that happens as a result of one model dealing damage to a model. The after effects still happen after whatever it is that triggers them.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Fair enough.

I'm not really fully satisfied with your explanation, but I'm definitely not fully satisfied with mine either. I'd be happy for an opponent to play it either way, and hope we get some official clarification eventually.

Just feels wrong a model can die, explode, and heal from exploding.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 3:17 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fair enough.

I'm not really fully satisfied with your explanation, but I'm definitely not fully satisfied with mine either. I'd be happy for an opponent to play it either way, and hope we get some official clarification eventually.

Just feels wrong a model can die, explode, and heal from exploding.

It can't. After reading this whole thread, I think some people have skipped over the fact that step 6 generates effects, and is not just rules text to follow. To elaborate with the trooper/Nekima example.

1. Happens as normal.

2.  Happens as normal.

3. Happens as normal.

4. Happens as normal.

5. Happens as normal.

6. Trooper being killed triggers. The 4 effects listed are all generated at the same time, but because of the text in 6, are generated in the 6a, 6b, 6c, 6d order.

  6a. Healing/Replacing killed effects resolve, ie. Demise(Eternal), and are not generated as per sequential effects.

  6b. Triggers as normal.

  6c. Demise(Explosive) resolves, and is not generated as per sequential effects.

      (Explosive effect resolution)

     1. normal

     2. normal

     3. normal

     4. normal

     5. Nekima's black blood triggers. Any after damage effects are additionally generated effects, and are added to resolution queue

     6. Nekima being killed triggers. All four killed effects are additionally generated effects and are added to resolution queue in the 6a, 6b, 6c, 6d order. Additionally, trooper's dark powers effect is generated and added to queue.

  6d. Trooper if removed

*7. Resolve Nekima's black blood

*8.  Nekima's killed effects and the troopers heal effect are simultaneous, so active player's model will act first. 

Results in the trooper being removed before it heals, and Nekima dies since the trooper is no longer able to take damage from it. This line of resolution does not result in any nested effects (the damage of Demise(explosive) is not an effect, but a resolution of the effect). The Demise abilities are part of the 6a or 6c effect resolution, and not generated by 6a or 6c (otherwise models could not be healed by a demise ability). 

 

[santaclaws01]

22 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

It can't. After reading this whole thread, I think some people have skipped over the fact that step 6 generates effects, and is not just rules text to follow. To elaborate with the trooper/Nekima example.

1. Happens as normal.

2.  Happens as normal.

3. Happens as normal.

4. Happens as normal.

5. Happens as normal.

6. Trooper being killed triggers. The 4 effects listed are all generated at the same time, but because of the text in 6, are generated in the 6a, 6b, 6c, 6d order.

  6a. Healing/Replacing killed effects resolve, ie. Demise(Eternal), and are not generated as per sequential effects.

  6b. Triggers as normal.

  6c. Demise(Explosive) resolves, and is not generated as per sequential effects.

      (Explosive effect resolution)

     1. normal

     2. normal

     3. normal

     4. normal

     5. Nekima's black blood triggers. Any after damage effects are additionally generated effects, and are added to resolution queue

     6. Nekima being killed triggers. All four killed effects are additionally generated effects and are added to resolution queue in the 6a, 6b, 6c, 6d order. Additionally, trooper's dark powers effect is generated and added to queue.

  6d. Trooper if removed

*7. Resolve Nekima's black blood

*8.  Nekima's killed effects and the troopers heal effect are simultaneous, so active player's model will act first. 

Results in the trooper being removed before it heals, and Nekima dies since the trooper is no longer able to take damage from it. This line of resolution does not result in any nested effects (the damage of Demise(explosive) is not an effect, but a resolution of the effect). The Demise abilities are part of the 6a or 6c effect resolution, and not generated by 6a or 6c (otherwise models could not be healed by a demise ability). 

 

So you're looking at the rules for damage timing and come upon step 5, which states "...resolve at this point." You then decide that this actually means they resolve at a later point. Interesting.

Also, this "Healing/Replacing killed effects resolve, ie. Demise(Eternal), and are not generated as per sequential effects." doesn't really make sense. What's your point here?

[mythicFOX]

<MODHAT>

I think this thread long ago ceased to be adding clarity to the rules and is now  progressing in the opposite direction.  

Locked.

</MODHAT>