DMH concerns/solution.

[KingJocko]

I've done Nicodem + McMourning since they share a handful of models, but the synergy wasn't really there. Both performed fine, however it didn't seem like anything OP would come of it since the two keywords were hurting each others internal synergies (not enough poison for McMourning, not enough corpses for Nicodem). The only other big synergy I could see is Nicodem + Red Chapel since a lot of that crew also has the Zombie keyword, but since it seems like Red Chapel is one of the weaker crews in Ressurs I'd doubt that Nico could elevate them to any ridiculous power level. Beyond that I'm not sure of any synergies Nico innately has with his faction that would be likely to break anything.

[Hawkoon]

I'm concerned with dual-master synergies as well, but there is a positive side to it that hasn't been brought up yet. And that's the possibility of reducing the impact of bad matchups when masters are declared. Some masters have a rather hard counter in other masters, like Justice against pretty much any undead/summoner, or Tara vs Misaki. The possibility of including a second master adds an option to hiring to negate some of the disadvantage.

Does it make up for the potential broken synergies of dual-master hiring? I don't really know, but I think it should be added to the consideration.

[Jesy Blue]

The thing about banning multiple master lists is its going to have to be worded a certain way to exclude Viktoria and doing so could leave loopholes.

[Regelridderen]

One argument that hasn’t been put forth against DMH yet is, that quite soon these masters probably won’t be available for purchase, their cards will probably be limited to an app. So they just won’t be available to all/new players. This should pose some balance concerns for tournament organizers - also concerned with bringing new players into the fold. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Regelridderen, I see DMH as a way to phase out the models. Rather than cancelling them overnight, it gives a time period where people can get a bit more value out of their purchases before they're obsolete.

I can't imagine they'll be played in 5 years unless Wyrd resurrects some of them (Nicodem has been set up for it for example).

[Lord J]

 

A bit off-topic, but with the release of the Gaining Grounds season zero i was really hoping for an official list of "Count as" models involving the DMH miniatures (like Ryle "count as" Melissa K.O.R.E., Lilith "count as" Nekima, Nico as Von Schtook, etc)

 

 I understand that some characters are (currently) out of the Malifaux scene, but i think we need some real options to give good use to the miniatures we already own, taking into account DMH is not allowed by default and some new miniatures have not a clear scheduled release.

 

 Just my 2c.

[Jesy Blue]

Paraphrasing what they have said earlier: 

The rules are free, the app is free, the cards are free.  We are in the business of selling models.  Why would we do something that made you not buy our models?

[solkan]

33 minutes ago, Lord J said:

 

A bit off-topic, but with the release of the Gaining Grounds season zero i was really hoping for an official list of "Count as" models involving the DMH miniatures (like Ryle "count as" Melissa K.O.R.E., Lilith "count as" Nekima, Nico as Von Schtook, etc)

Ryle counting as Melissa KORE is an unofficial agreement that I think a lot of people would find reasonable.  It'd be better if you gave Ryle a wig (and trench coat, if you can manage it), though, so he'd qualify as a converted proxy for the unreleased model. 

If I was going to organize a tournament, I'd make an announcement that the minimum standard for one model to clearly be converted into another is to put a sign on it saying who it is.  You don't have to try to fit the whole "Hello, my name is" on the sign, just the model's new name.  

But that's because I'd be more concerned about model being recognizable as what it's being used for.  And the best way to do that is to either alter the model to look like what's supposed to be, or put a sign on it.  "But I'm willing to constantly remind the other player what it is" doesn't work, because that'll get distracting or just ends up competing with all background noise in the event.

Quote

 I understand that some characters are (currently) out of the Malifaux scene, but i think we need some real options to give good use to the miniatures we already own, taking into account DMH is not allowed by default and some new miniatures have not a clear scheduled release.

I'd like to point out that on the same page that says DMH models aren't allowed on the left side has a game variant on the right side called "Classic" where the TO gets to allow whichever DMH models they've been talked into allowing.

So if a group has been allowing DMH models before Season 0, there's a convenient and concise way of specifying that:  "We're using the Classic(All DMH) variant."

So they've set it up to be a local issue.  And it's only going to be the handful of conventions where Wyrd's running the events directly that DMH is going to be a hard "No".

[Lord J]

5 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

 Why would we do something that made you not buy our models?

 Because if you sell me miniatures and, 1 year later, i won't be 100% allowed to use them in tournaments, maybe (maybe) you will end up playing with those models all by yourself.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Lord J said:

 Because if you sell me miniatures and, 1 year later, i won't be 100% allowed to use them in tournaments, maybe (maybe) you will end up playing with those models all by yourself.

Which option would you prefer to seek assistance in pursuing:

• Converting your DMH models to represent other figures
• Discussing the use of DMH models with your local group and seeking their acceptance for use
• Good sales or barter site recommendations for your DMH models
• Use of the DMH models for their painting and modeling purposes
• Other, please specify

so that you can continue to get value out of your previous purchases?

 

[Lord J]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

Which option would you prefer to seek assistance in pursuing:

• Converting your DMH models to represent other figures
• Discussing the use of DMH models with your local group and seeking their acceptance for use
• Good sales or barter site recommendations for your DMH models
• Use of the DMH models for their painting and modeling purposes
• Other, please specify

so that you can continue to get value out of your previous purchases?

 

 Currently, buying a model can be a roulette throw: you get a model, use it as a part of your crews and one day, Malifaux fluff changes and the character this model represents disappear, so the model goes out of factions and is not allowed to be used in tournaments.

Been playing wargames for many years, and never seen this kind of mechanic; the most similar is Magic the Gathering and the updating list of forbidden cards in the different formats, but i think these 2 games are too different to be compared.

So, i feel really weird to be forced to leave models on the shelf because they suddenly are not allowed. I honestly think there should be a way to continue the use of these official models. I think a list of "Count as" could be the fairest way. Converting DMH models seems not a solution, as GG season zero states proxies are only valid for models not released. Global solutions are always better than local solutions, and having to discuss the acceptance of official models because fluff has changed will end in different results in each local meta.

 

 

[admiralvorkraft]

I said it when it was first announced, I'll keep saying it; there's no way to keep a game competitive if you keep adding models without adopting a rotating system like MtG. Bloat and power creep are unavoidable.

Expectations need to be clearly set out but I'd like to see something like one keyword per faction rotated out or rewritten each year rather than waves of new models added to an already crowded game. 

[Ogid]

This DMH thing happenned with an edition change, it's not something happening that frecuently to make a big deal about it; and it's probably happening for balance reasons, not with an evil plan in mind to sell more models. Malifaux seems to play fair there.

I'm going to quote myself from other thread where this question were brought up about problems and solutions for DMH:

On 9/27/2019 at 8:14 PM, Ogid said:

One of the big points against of these is the avaliability, if these aren't avaliable in M3e and they can't no longer be found; then players that got them before will have a competitive options that the rest of the players don't.

The other problem is the number of masters per faction; Neverborn would have 10 masters (Nekima and Lilith would share crew tho, Puppets are playable with Hinamatsu, but it would be an extra advantage for the faction), Arcanist and Ressers would have 9 masters (Mortuary and Machina also are playable thanks to henchmans, but they would also have more options than the rest)

With a way to resolve these problems, (like making these models avaliable for M3e through M3 boxes, and being forced to exile a particular master to be able include one of the Dead Hand), then I guess they could be included.

For example:

• NVB: Choose Lilith or Nekima (high synergy), choose Collodi or Titania (Tanky crew, I choosed Titania because it's the tankiest crew in NVB and puppets are also very tough)
• ARC: Choose Ramos or Hoffman (high synergy) (or maybe Ramos or Sandeep (summoner for summoner) Not sure which is the right call here)
• RES: Choose Kirai or Nicodem (one summoner for other summoner)

The non-choosen masters cannot be hired, the rest of the models of the exiled master's keyword could be still hired OOK as usual. This would avoid double masters with high synergies like the 2 Nephs or Ramos-Hoffman and would keep the 8 masters per faction. Players would have to anounce these Choices before going to the tournament or when announcing the faction in a casual game (Nekima-Collodi NVB, Ramos ARC or Kirai RES for example).

If they found a way to bring these crew back without messing the balance, I'm in. But I'm willing to sacrifice a few models to the shelves' gods for the greater good (And Collodi is one of the few masters I own)

[Lord J]

 

 I see your points, and understand the balance issues, but i am trying to actively differentiate  miniatures from characters.

I understand Ramos or Lilith are no longer available as Masters in their Factions. So, now their models are just decorative elements on my shelf? In other wargames, when an special character disappears, its model can still be officially used as a vanilla commander or similar. I know this exact mechanic can't be used in Malifaux  (there is no "generic Master"), but adapt them to a "count as" could be fair enough.

 

 

 

 

[Jesy Blue]

As someone who played Tyranids for 15+ years, I had to put so many models on the shelf for years between editions on several occasions. 

This is not new or unique.

[admiralvorkraft]

6 hours ago, Lord J said:

 

 I see your points, and understand the balance issues, but i am trying to actively differentiate  miniatures from characters.

I understand Ramos or Lilith are no longer available as Masters in their Factions. So, now their models are just decorative elements on my shelf? In other wargames, when an special character disappears, its model can still be officially used as a vanilla commander or similar. I know this exact mechanic can't be used in Malifaux  (there is no "generic Master"), but adapt them to a "count as" could be fair enough.

 

 

 

 

That's fair - official counts-as rules would be friendly

[Lord J]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

As someone who played Tyranids for 15+ years, I had to put so many models on the shelf for years between editions on several occasions. 

This is not new or unique.

 

 Because they were removed from the Codex or officially not allowed in tournaments?  I played w40k from 1ed to 5ed with Eldar, Space Marines and Imperial Guard (and then intermittently from 6ed +), and really can't remember *several occasions* happening this.

 

[Jesy Blue]

Both.  You'll find lots of restrictions both codex and tournament to the Tyranids from 2nd through 8th. 

Luckily I'm an Outcast player now and have nothing in DMH.

[Lord J]

7 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Both.  You'll find lots of restrictions both codex and tournament to the Tyranids from 2nd through 8th. 

 

 

 Searching and unfortunately can't find nothing related. Could you give me some examples of w40k Tyranid miniatures whose rules were removed from Codex in new editions and/or banned in tournaments by GW (Forgeworld apart, of course)? This is something i have to analyze. Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Jesy Blue]

Let's go off post for this non-faux talk.