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LCBrules

Malifaux 3.0 is super disappointing and a downgrade in almost every way from 2.0

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As a fellow game developer, it astounds me how negative the changes are in Malifaux 3.0. So many unique characters and abilities have become generic and lost their flavor and fun. Most of the characters that I have used and loved (mostly Neverborn) have become nerfed (not that they were O.P in the first place) and lost a lot of their unique abilities. It truly shocks me how as developers you are ok and moved forward with these changes. I would like to think that a new edition would be an  "improvement" to the characters, systems and overall experience, but from everything I have read (with the exception of pass tokens), this update is a huge downgrade in pretty much every way. I could not be more disappointed....

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We must be looking at completely different rulesets. M3E is absolutely an improvement over 2e, and I absolutely loved 2e. The game can now be played without a near encyclopedic knowledge of conditions, timing of actions, and vantage point LoS. What little we lost in flavor we gained in a more intuitive ruleset that plays smoother. Keyword hiring is fantastic, shadow terrain actually works, and like you said, pass tokens are great. Your models didn't get nerfed, the power creep that was so prevalent in book 4 and 5 models has been reset, meaning older models can actually be useful too. 

I strongly urge you to actually play the game before writing it off so derisively. Hundreds of people play tested this game, and the general consensus is that it is an improvement. Maybe it actually is

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As a fellow games developer, you ought to know better than simply ‘reading’ about the changes, and rather start ‘playing’ with the changes, Malifaux has been streamlined, but this does not mean, that the tactics has become simpler, only that there are less ‘gotcha’ moments, and that it plays more intuitively.

Secondly, your favorite models have not become nerfed. The entire game and its models has been given an overhaul and rebalanced, some have been given entirely new purpose, others just a little twist and tweak, and quite a lot will now see use unlike ever before. There is focus on ‘thematic’ crews and less on bringing the usual suspects, so prepare for more diversity and less repetition - all for the better, as now your favorite models will actually feel more unique. 

In general you’ll find that the community embrace the changes with great enthusiasm, and that the positive responses outnumber the negative by far. So do a little less reading and a lot more playing.

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I was worried when I first started reading some of the model and rule changes in closed beta. I never liked the gotcha moments in M2e, but I really enjoyed the depth and flavor. It's so much fun discovering complex interactions and synergies between models and I was concerned that those possibilities would be lost in M3e. They aren't. Those things are still there along with all of the flavor and great models that were there before. In fact, with the keyword system, I think you'll actually see quite a few more combinations of models on the table than you saw in M2e. It did take playing it a few times to start to have that sink in and feel OK. I really lik(ed) M2e, so it did take playing it to get there. 

Now, I do wish some of the attack and ability names in some cases weren't put into a universal naming convention. There is perhaps a minor flavor loss there. There are still some things that we will find are OP (I'm pretty sure I've seen one already, but time will tell). 

Overall though I would say M3e is an improvement in every other way. The streamlining of conditions, LOS, actions, summoning, pass tokens, the keyword system, removal of cache, removal of paralyze, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting are great improvements to the game. 

Give it a shot!

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Although it might look like the game has lost some personality, it's the opposite on the table. Unlike before, the game is much more than having the same crew of "best models" with a different master. Forget about all-stars lists! The crews all play so uniquely that it feels like a completely different game with each keyword. 

And there's still a lot of flavor in the names/actions/abilities!

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8 hours ago, LCBrules said:

 have become nerfed

how can it be a nerf when it's a new game? It's not M2E and not a continuation of it.

There are some severe changes between M2E and M3E, yes, but I've played enough Games during the closed and open beta to assure you that it is a frikkin good game! Play it.

I loved M2E and I was strongly against M3E Prior to it's announcement. Once I've made my peace with it though I realized how much better it is.

 

Especially as a game developer you should/could appreciate the efforts that have been made to make every Keyword viable in itself. There are no/less faction-wide "must haves".

As a M2E Gremlin Player I almost always brought a Slop Hauler. I've had dedicated schemerunners that were played regardless of the master. a few bayou Gremlins made it into almost every list.

At the same time I almost never played mah tucket and bushwhackers. Trixiebelle however fit into many lists. Rooster Riders were not worth their Points and there was no reason to play moon shinobi at all.

Now Everything seems viable. Of Course after a certain time I will find certain things I like better and will take them over other certain things. But overall it's just a better designed and well rounded game.

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I think M2E was a bit of a mess towards the end. A lot of abilities and mechanics was different for the sake of being different as if the only way to differentiate a new model was to come up with something really wonky. I have not had the opportunity to play M3E as Malifaux is pretty dead around here but I like the way it reads.

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On 7/1/2019 at 9:52 PM, LCBrules said:

As a fellow game developer, it astounds me how negative the changes are in Malifaux 3.0. So many unique characters and abilities have become generic and lost their flavor and fun. Most of the characters that I have used and loved (mostly Neverborn) have become nerfed (not that they were O.P in the first place) and lost a lot of their unique abilities. It truly shocks me how as developers you are ok and moved forward with these changes. I would like to think that a new edition would be an  "improvement" to the characters, systems and overall experience, but from everything I have read (with the exception of pass tokens), this update is a huge downgrade in pretty much every way. I could not be more disappointed....

Could you maybe provide some examples of models you're particulary disappointed with, or new/changed rules?

I think that would help the discussion.

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So lets just lay all the cards on the table. You created an account yesterday. You are a game designer. You read new rules made by a competitor. You didn't think they where an improvement yet provided no examples of how said models where cuddled (if that can even be a thing when EVERYTHING got new rules). You said you are disappointed by what you have read but not anything about playing the new game. You then came to said competitors forums to throw shade. Not sure what type of reply you are looking for but most of them are going to be negative by the people who have actually played the new edition.

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On 7/1/2019 at 9:52 PM, LCBrules said:

As a fellow game developer...

"...I somehow can't grasp how bloated the previous edition had become, and how welcomed a bit of streamlining has been by the community."

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5 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

“...I enjoy long walks along the beach, picnics in the sun and creating new profiles to troll and throw shade in internet forums.”.

 

5 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

“...I enjoy long walks along the beach, picnics in the sun and creating new profiles to troll and throw shade in internet forums.”.

Well played.

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The change from 2e to 3e is exactly why I'm getting back into the game. I played during 1st ed but shelved it for a couple of years as there was no big uptake in the area. When I tried to revive the community for 2e the rules bloat and huge amount of model specific rules made it prohibitive for new players. 

 

The streamlined 3e system has finally made the game accessible enough for me to try ressurect a community here and I'm delighted with how it looks an plays.

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I haven't even played a single game in M3e yet and I'm already super excited.  As many previous forum members have stated, yes, there have been some changes, but most of them have been about streamlining rules and making things less complicated while making older models that have been reduced in power level more usable again in relation to the newer release models from last edition.  After playing multiple game systems over the years, it seems like all systems find it difficult to release new models or material while maintaining the power balance of all the models that came before them, so it is quite refreshing to see a game developer like Wyrd wipe the slate clean and re-establish the balance of their game going into the future.  All the same characters are there (albeit with a bit of juggling of factions and certain masters disappearing into the "Dead Man's Hand" area), and they may have had some changes with what you are normally used to taking with them, but in the end, any changes that incite new interest into the game from either existing clientele or newcomers to the system can only be good.

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I do think there are parts of M3E that are flawed but there's a lot more that are an improvement. The models are still pretty complex, and the fact that they were given some theme-synergy only makes it a lot easier to learn for most new players.

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M3E is more about sinergies between the crews and playing the game with models you like. In Ressers we have lost a lot of summoning mechanics, but this is not a nerf, it´s just that some crews play different. Now i don´t have to summon everyturn a rotten belle with Seamus, but that does not mean i cant keep playing with Seamus, it´s just other kind of game. And i´m glad to admit that counting with only 10 conditions is better than the more than a hundred M2E conditions...

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On 7/2/2019 at 1:49 AM, Trample said:

Now, I do wish some of the attack and ability names in some cases weren't put into a universal naming convention. There is perhaps a minor flavor loss there. There are still some things that we will find are OP (I'm pretty sure I've seen one already, but time will tell). 

Some of that was just during the beta.  In Guild, for example (and I'm sure it was some other factions too) all the pistols were "Clockwork Pistol" for beta testing, but now the cards have been released, Guild Sergeants have Peacebringer, Guard Patrol has Small-Gauge Revolver, Monster Hunters have Custom Pistol, etc.  I know that several Bayou abilities have unique names again too but I have done any deep analysis beyond that.

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So to answer some of the comments, without getting into huge long arguments (the irony of bitter trolls calling me a troll);

Con's

1. getting rid of an increased charge distance and having "charging" (running) the same distance as walking makes no sense and wastes more time on movement.

2. reducing the range of most melee abilities means now you have to walk more and you have to get close for combat. Instead of speeding the game up, this has slowed it down even more

3. Getting rid of the master specific upgrades is the most disappointing thing for me. Now the masters feel very generic and have lost the range of mechanics i could choose to switch between game per game. The Dreamer crew feels completely different, the dreamer lost a lot of cool, fun healing, control, movement abilties and got... a bat? LCB feels way squishier, lost his awesome teeth attack, and his extra attacks with his claws as well as his melee master. Widow Weaver lost her ability to make Teddy's (one of my favorite things) as well as her ranged attack, and now just pushes people further away and spins webs. Titania's Autumn Knights all became generacized and lost the whip abilities, spear abilities, and 2hsword abilities that made them unique and interesting. The Emissary of Fate lost his fun, carniverous plants ability that really matched his theme.

4. Needing to spend +1 summon points to summon a character from your same faction seems like a huge deterrent and makes me way less likely to mix and match and try new things.

5. Paralyze was one of my favorite mechanics and now it is gone. A lot of the new mechanics seem very underwhelming

6. Investing in certain crews and characters only to have them moved to different crews with different keywords and/or functionality is disappointing.

 

Pro's

1. The new cards are beautiful. I like the size and layout

2. Getting rid of defensive stance and reducing the effectiveness of cover is a good thing in my opinion. It felt like previously all the movements were from cover to cover and there was never an opportunity for a straight shot

3. Some masters and minions that were perhaps underplayed have been improved which was a good balance check.

4. I like that not all conditions end at the end of each turn.

 

Those are my thoughts based off my experience and actually playing the game many, many times so far. Not sorry that i am not on the "everything is wonderful and great bandwagon" and when i give a contrary opinion everyone loves to hate. I do love this game and think it has a lot of great unique qualities, and unfortunately it just feel very watered down. That is hugely disappointing as a long time fan.....

 

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4 minutes ago, LCBrules said:

1. getting rid of an increased charge distance and having "charging" (running) the same distance as walking makes no sense and wastes more time on movement.

2. reducing the range of most melee abilities means now you have to walk more and you have to get close for combat. Instead of speeding the game up, this has slowed it down even more

Once again I will ask, have you actually tried the rules? Because it works very differently than you say, now that charge is a (1) action. Take a typical statline in M2e: 5 walk, 8 Charge, 1" melee, and a similar statline in M3e: 5 Mv and 0" melee (no charge stat needed). Say you are 10" from an enemy. M2e model cannot hit the enemy at all and has to spend its whole activation walking. The M3e model can walk and then charge, getting to hit once, instead of not hitting at all. In my experience (and I've played a whole lot of M3E) you actually "waste" actions walking far less than you did in 2e. Add that to larger deployment zones, more tends to happen turn 1 than it used to. 
 

15 minutes ago, LCBrules said:

3. Getting rid of the master specific upgrades is the most disappointing thing for me. Now the masters feel very generic and have lost the range of mechanics i could choose to switch between game per game. The Dreamer crew feels completely different, the dreamer lost a lot of cool, fun healing, control, movement abilties and got... a bat? LCB feels way squishier, lost his awesome teeth attack, and his extra attacks with his claws as well as his melee master. Widow Weaver lost her ability to make Teddy's (one of my favorite things) as well as her ranged attack, and now just pushes people further away and spins webs. Titania's Autumn Knights all became generacized and lost the whip abilities, spear abilities, and 2hsword abilities that made them unique and interesting. The Emissary of Fate lost his fun, carniverous plants ability that really matched his theme.

Some of this I do agree with you on. Some models did lose some flavor, but at the benefit of having a less dense game. Other things were done for balance. Dreamer summoning a Teddy was unbalanced as shit, god forbid Widow doing it. As for master upgrades, they are addressing that with Titles, doing what upgrades did for alt play styles in a much more concise way. 

18 minutes ago, LCBrules said:

4. Needing to spend +1 summon points to summon a character from your same faction seems like a huge deterrent and makes me way less likely to mix and match and try new things.

I honestly can't figure out what you are even trying to say with this one

18 minutes ago, LCBrules said:

5. Paralyze was one of my favorite mechanics and now it is gone. A lot of the new mechanics seem very underwhelming

Paralyze is widely regarded as the single most NPE thing in 2e, and I'm not sad to see it gone. 

20 minutes ago, LCBrules said:

6. Investing in certain crews and characters only to have them moved to different crews with different keywords and/or functionality is disappointing.

I really feel for you on this one, it sucks. But decisions had to be made to make the keyword systems (which is fantastic) work. Unfortunately you can't please everyone all the time

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@LCBrules Sorry you're disappointed in the new rules but you seem to be in the minority. 2E was a dead game for the most part. There was a small pocket of players in certain areas and a huge lack of incoming players. Not a good place to be, especially considering the level of study needed to even enter into the arena with some of these 2E players. It was far to nuanced and absolutely bloated in terms of useless options. Currently in 3E you will see a much more wide variety of masters and models being played. The balancing act all the masters got despite your favorite mechanics going out the window is better for the entire game, you cannot deny that. 

Master upgrades were cumbersome and required way too much of a knowledge base for players to fully comprehend. Too many options is not a good thing, despite your attitude towards it...  

You seem to be a Dreamer fan too... I would recommend you get some games in with him before you freak out. He's still as fun as he's ever been, maybe not as variable with all the upgrades, but he is a great master that plays thematically. LCB can teleport with one of his triggers and the bury/summon mechanic is really unique while being tactically valuable. I have been playing him exclusively for the past few weeks and have been having a blast. Definitely my favorite master still. 

Widow Weaver, nobody can summon teddies... they're enforcers now so only get 1 max. Also, getting away from those huge summons on a RJ is a good thing for the game. Keeps it from being so swingy in that respect. What she can do in 3E is pretty awesome if you put her on the table. She's almost an auto include whereas in competitive 2E you'd never see her. 

As for the knights...... who actually took the Winter knight in 2e...? lol. So we have 2 variants that got washed away into a single tanky model that has Df6, parry, and challenge. Until you realize the value of cards in 3E you wont see why Autumn knights are good but they really are. 

Emissary still plants hazardous terrain markers, attacks movement, and is one of NB's better tanks... 

Coming out with pure hatred is not going to be well received by this community... we love Malifaux. We accept that 2E is done/over and are all looking to a better future with this system. Some of us spent some serious time in the Beta tests trying to save the things we loved most...some made it some didnt... So... take it for what it is but understand that vitriol will be met with a staunch resistance within this community because you are plain wrong. :)

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