Malifaux 3.0 is super disappointing and a downgrade in almost every way from 2.0

[trikk]

49 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

Master upgrades were cumbersome and required way too much of a knowledge base for players to fully comprehend. Too many options is not a good thing, despite your attitude towards it...  

There were some upgrades that were autopicked (Marcus had 3 Limited upgrades but 1 was clearly better than the other 2). There were some situational choices but a lot of them were garbage and increased confusion. Now most of the upgrades give generic abilities, so it's pretty to get used to them.

[ChoriQueso]

This thread ended after the third post.

"this update is a huge downgrade in pretty much every way"

"M3E is absolutely an improvement over 2e"

This sums it up for me!

Opinions are fun!

[Drowsheep]

Glad you expanded on your view and gave some more details on how you feel.

10 hours ago, LCBrules said:

Con's

1. getting rid of an increased charge distance and having "charging" (running) the same distance as walking makes no sense and wastes more time on movement.

2. reducing the range of most melee abilities means now you have to walk more and you have to get close for combat. Instead of speeding the game up, this has slowed it down even more

3. Getting rid of the master specific upgrades is the most disappointing thing for me. Now the masters feel very generic and have lost the range of mechanics i could choose to switch between game per game. The Dreamer crew feels completely different, the dreamer lost a lot of cool, fun healing, control, movement abilties and got... a bat? LCB feels way squishier, lost his awesome teeth attack, and his extra attacks with his claws as well as his melee master. Widow Weaver lost her ability to make Teddy's (one of my favorite things) as well as her ranged attack, and now just pushes people further away and spins webs. Titania's Autumn Knights all became generacized and lost the whip abilities, spear abilities, and 2hsword abilities that made them unique and interesting. The Emissary of Fate lost his fun, carniverous plants ability that really matched his theme.

4. Needing to spend +1 summon points to summon a character from your same faction seems like a huge deterrent and makes me way less likely to mix and match and try new things.

5. Paralyze was one of my favorite mechanics and now it is gone. A lot of the new mechanics seem very underwhelming

6. Investing in certain crews and characters only to have them moved to different crews with different keywords and/or functionality is disappointing.

1) As was said, definitely keep playing-- you'll see that you might be getting in less attacks per activation, but more attacks throughout the game. At first I was thrown too, because objectively, it looks like it got worse.  But now you have the option to move, charge or to charge, attack, or even do other things that a normal model couldn't do before because they had to spend both AP on their charge.  So, I think, as far as giving you options on what you can do, this was a good call.

2) This I can get behind, but again, being able to move then charge means that having 0" reach is more reach than it used to be.  I also like it because it makes some plays a bit harder--not every model can control an area of the board as wide as they used to (which just changes the dynamic of the game a bit).

3) I also wish their were more upgrades for masters--but a lot of that content got moved to triggers or to the base cards themselves.  so while a lot was streamlined for ease of play (and to help get new players up to speed), it also wasn't all lost (depending on your master).

4) This is one of those double-edged swords--but I'm glad they did it.  At the end of 2e, crews were all starting to look alike, there were go-to models that were auto-includes because they were too good.  This game has always been about the story and the flavor--so having everyone's crew look alike because they're just playing the "best" models is no fun.  Making thematic crews makes it a more varied experience--and makes you use more of the models you paid for but never put onto the table.  I am 100% down for this!  

5) Gonna be honest, while it might feel cool to paralyze something and watch your opponent squirm, it was never a good feeling getting paralyzed.  I'm fine it got tossed.  

6) I get that 100%--I really feel sorry for people who lost their favorite master (or who bought five boxes of witchling stalkers they now can't use). I also think that Neverborn got hit the hardest (which might have been for good reason  ) so I do feel your pain there.  This will always suck no matter what game you play.  But all games do this--it's the inevitable momentum of gaming companies to change things up (whether it's banning cards in a card game, releasing a new edition--with new expansions--of a board game, or upgrading a codex and totally changing how certain models work--or whether those models even exist).

 

All in all, I know that reading random people on the internet's opinions aren't going to make you feel better--but try it out, play a few games.  The new streamlined rules are still pretty similar to what it used to be, but a lot of the extra fluff was cut--making it more manageable and more easily understood.  There are less surprises that will just totally ruin your--or your opponent's day--which I think is good, because it means more people are having fun and enjoying the game.

It's really easy to theory-faux based off of the cards, but just get out there and play.  I've played against the Dreamer and he's pretty scary (milling through your own deck to get rid of all of your weak cards is pretty awesome).  As far as I'm concerned, the Neverborn might have been hit pretty hard in the new edition, but they're still a deadly force to be reckoned with, and no joke to face down on the other side of the table!

[Nikodemus]

Misaki's 2AP threat range went from 10" to 12".

Ototo went from 9" to 12".

Yamaziko went from 9" to 10".

Crime Boss went from 8" to 10".

Torakage went from 8" to 15".

 

Small sample, but it shows the general trend of threat ranges increasing a fair bit. Add to that the fact that most deployments are as far or farther up than they were in 2e.

[theamazingmrg]

On 7/16/2019 at 9:57 PM, LCBrules said:

So to answer some of the comments, without getting into huge long arguments (the irony of bitter trolls calling me a troll);

Con's

1. getting rid of an increased charge distance and having "charging" (running) the same distance as walking makes no sense and wastes more time on movement.

2. reducing the range of most melee abilities means now you have to walk more and you have to get close for combat. Instead of speeding the game up, this has slowed it down even more

3. Getting rid of the master specific upgrades is the most disappointing thing for me. Now the masters feel very generic and have lost the range of mechanics i could choose to switch between game per game. The Dreamer crew feels completely different, the dreamer lost a lot of cool, fun healing, control, movement abilties and got... a bat? LCB feels way squishier, lost his awesome teeth attack, and his extra attacks with his claws as well as his melee master. Widow Weaver lost her ability to make Teddy's (one of my favorite things) as well as her ranged attack, and now just pushes people further away and spins webs. Titania's Autumn Knights all became generacized and lost the whip abilities, spear abilities, and 2hsword abilities that made them unique and interesting. The Emissary of Fate lost his fun, carniverous plants ability that really matched his theme.

4. Needing to spend +1 summon points to summon a character from your same faction seems like a huge deterrent and makes me way less likely to mix and match and try new things.

5. Paralyze was one of my favorite mechanics and now it is gone. A lot of the new mechanics seem very underwhelming

6. Investing in certain crews and characters only to have them moved to different crews with different keywords and/or functionality is disappointing.

You posted a negative post with no supporting arguments.  It's not the people who responded who look like trolls.  That said, you have followed up with reasons, and that makes you look less troll-ish, which is a good thing!

 

1.  If you only see a charge as a run, then yes, it seems a little off.  But its not a run, its a push that allows you to make an attack afterwards.  Being a push is important for avoiding effects that trigger off normal walk moves, and can get round the need to perform a Disengage action if the model has a rule that allows it to charge while engaged.  The fact it is only 1 action (rather than 2AP) means that you can also perform a normal move first, then charge, extending your threat range by more than what would have been the difference between Mv and Cg stats in M2E.  Being a single action also means you can Concentrate first, to give yourself a Focus on the attack from the charge (and the way Fast works now by giving you the extra action immediately offers even more flexibility on how charges can be used).  The advantages that charge now has more than outweighs the slight drop in stat value.

 

2. See the response about charges.  Most models actually have a bigger threat range now, even if they do need to make a walk action first.  And Malifaux has always had a lot of other movement tricks to make sure that walking is not the only thing going on.

 

3. I can see where you're coming from here, but it only affects those Masters that had upgrades of similar power levels.  Most Masters, in my experience (which I'm the first person to admit is limited), had one upgrade that was consistently better than the others, so it was the de facto choice anyway.  Making it so that everything you need to understand for a single Master is on one card helps the speed of the game.  It may seem like less variety, but that's not necessarily a bad thing if it means that you and an opponent can understand a crew better.

 

4. M2E had the Mercenary tax and it didn't stop Johan appearing in strange places.  The Keyword hiring rules means that yes, hiring non-Versatile, non-Keyword models from the Masters declared Faction is slightly more expensive, but it does mean that often models can be taken from outside of the Faction at no extra cost.  This means that Masters like Mei Feng has a hiring pool of Arcanist, Ten Thunders, and Bayou models in the same crew, with the Versatile and non-Keyword models from the declared Faction.  There is a reasonable amount of variety, and hopefully the tax will stop some of the more broken combinations (but probably not, because, at the end of the day, +1SS for nonsense is probably worth it).

 

5. Have you ever asked your opponent how they felt about Paralyze?  Because I would put money on them not loving it as much as you did.  It was a horrible mechanic to play against, especially if you played a Faction with limited access to it (or any, for that matter - I can't think of a single Guild model that could inflict the condition, but that's not the same things as none existing!)  From my perspective, removing something as powerful as Paralyze is a great thing.

 

6. Yeah, that sucks.  My friend had a Pandora crew that consisted of the core box models, Johan, Mr Graves, and Mr Tannen.  Now he can't take any of those last three models and has to buy some new bits.  My sympathy is lacking though, because that crew was horrible to play against.

[mythicFOX]

<MODHAT>

I've removed a post and closed the thread for necromancy. 

The OP has said their piece, and it's not a topic I see value in returning to after a month of inactivity. 

People should feel free to complain about M3e in new threads.

</MODHAT>

... or preferably (IMHO) find something else they love and fill their lives with the joy of that instead. Peace.