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8 hours ago, malyzubor said:

I personally still hesitate about the use of these guys. Sue is surely a bit more durable (+1WP, +1HP, HTK against bulletproof and psychological aspect of the Quick draw) but considering their damage output, I find the gunslingers much better. Yes, their min dmg is 2 compared to Sue's 3 (with the critical strike), but apart from this, they have significant advantage in the number of their actions/attacks. Considering their Life of Crime and Onslaught trigger, they usually have no problem to bring 4+ actions a turn and it is definitely more then those two of Sues.

I find the biggest difference between these two in their bonus actions. Sue's are excellent (and probably much better) provided he stands in the middle of the action, which is imo not the best place you want to be with the run and gun crew. On the other hand, gunslinger's chain gang helps to bring him and especially Maddog with his short range closer (or even further) to the target when needed. When I played both of these guys together, I usually used chain gang almost every turn, Sue's bonuses effectively maybe once or twice a game.

Sue really misses Life of crime, imho. I usually play with the Emissary for its bonus action scheme dropping, which can provide sufficient markers to fuel Life of crime, combined with Parker's drawing their attention, for everyone who needs it.  I like to hire Sue when I expect mobile melee opponents or when I need some extra firepower or his utility action (to remove scraps and corspes), but I find myself hiring a single gunslinger more often than Sue, mainly because their AP difference. But I might be missing something important, of course.

Sue for me is the "tank". In addition, he's a great target for those Rams that you're not going to use for anything else, putting him to 4/5/6. His Walk the line is going to be most of the time on Mr Brackett, which is better than the Chain Gang most of the times, specially since you want Mad Dog to be below his maximum health. So in one activation, you'll probably be drawing to cards and shooting one for damage 3/4/5.

If you really want him with fast, you can go with the Dead Outlaw or the Student in conflict. You could even use the Malifaux Child to Drop a Scheme marker and copy Walk the line, which would be like giving him fast. I don't like the Dead Outlaw option, because you're spending a 6ss model action in giving an 8ss model an action... Not really worth it in my opinion. I prefer the Student, because at least you get a useful free action.

Dead Outlaws are only useful when you're facing a heavy summoner or someone that gives upgrades around. And in those cases, you still have to bring 2 to make them worth it.

The Gunslingers are good, and definitely are better at killing, but the enemies are not going to stay far away from you while you shoot them, they're going to try to kill/tarpit you or get good cover/concealment. Also, there are plenty of beaters with a huge mobility (or being carried by the Riders), so you better have someone that can hold Archie (as an example) for a turn. Of course, if you're facing someone with a lot of :ranged, and I'm not talking just about Perdita/Ophelia, it can be: Sonnia, Som'er or even Lady Justice, you're bringing Machete and Jesus (one is Danny Trejo and the other one really looks like Jesus, so that's how I call them lol)

19 hours ago, psychogeek said:

What the outlaws add is the god pseudo obey (good especially in corrupted idols), good utility against crews like yanlo or Marcus due to upgrades, covetous cravings is another good counter to scheme markers, they have good use for only 6 stones, but they are generally betting on daw, I agree.

If I want extra healing I will take the effigy or emmisary tbh. And I hate hold up their forces..

The pseudo-obey you already have it with the Bandidos (in a worse version, yes, but still nothing that's really going to matter that much). I agree with you, Malifaux Child best use is not copying the good Doctor's ability.

Pride is really good, but you really don't feel it that much, because you opponent won't be cheating that much when he's around. So it's not what he does, is what your opponent is not doing. Specially good against crews that work in a bubble (Som'er, Ironsides, Hoffman...).

The Prospectors are really good. Are worse version of the Soulstone Miner. In a good turn, he provides you a lot of scheme markers (even 1 enemy one, if you're lucky) and on a bad turn, at least he gives you a SS.

Barbados and Hans: I never find them really useful. I've never used Barbados, but on paper I thing we have better choices. Hans is very situational, and I usually want more Bandits.

I think that Benny can actually work decently, but you have to build your list around him.

The Bayou Smugglers are a no go to me (not in Bandits, not in Bayou). I can't see any reason to hire them instead of a Prospector, Dead Outlaw or a Bandido. I would go with the Student of Conflict before them. And it's a shame, because mine are amazingly painted and I always try to find a spot for them. Come on Wyrd, they don't even have a rifle! (Even if the models have it). 120% garbage.

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15 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Sue for me is the "tank". In addition, he's a great target for those Rams that you're not going to use for anything else, putting him to 4/5/6. His Walk the line is going to be most of the time on Mr Brackett, which is better than the Chain Gang most of the times, specially since you want Mad Dog to be below his maximum health. So in one activation, you'll probably be drawing to cards and shooting one for damage 3/4/5.

If you really want him with fast, you can go with the Dead Outlaw or the Student in conflict. You could even use the Malifaux Child to Drop a Scheme marker and copy Walk the line, which would be like giving him fast. I don't like the Dead Outlaw option, because you're spending a 6ss model action in giving an 8ss model an action... Not really worth it in my opinion. I prefer the Student, because at least you get a useful free action.

You have got a very good point in the ram used for Sue's attack, however, I am not sure if I agree with the rest. In my small experience, I have not been able to use walk the line very often for the purposes of pushing and drawing only. The circumstances it requires are not easy to have and it often makes you push the target in a direction, you don't really need. And the only real benefit is often only the card drawn. For an AP of a 8ss model, it does not seem enough for me. In addition, you usually cannot use it turn one effectively, when you need to move Maddog closer to the action the most.

The second card drawn from Grit is even more situational as staying below half of his life is usually a matter of 2-3 attacks against Sue and he rarely draws more that 1-2(if lucky) card per game.

As for the fast options of yours, I cannot think of a situation, where I would takt the Student instead of another Bandido and if I have a spare 8 for the Malifaux child, I would rather spend it copying the bandit raid.

But I will sure give him more time on the table to try to work with him more. I just currently feel him far more situational model than the gunslinger.

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A couple of words for Convict and Wokou. 

 

The times I tried the convicts they did more work then Sue. Maybe i didn’t use Sue correctly but damn the chain in the gunslingers and the onslaught... couple of times they shot someone 5 times! Between onslaught and fast. They destroyed a big model in one activation. Doest come up always but its easier to get then it looks. 

I think they are just crazy  

I agree with you comments on the wokou. I use them to hold Lady J for some time to give me time to act. Great melee roadblocks. 

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Sue is situationally good in my opinion.

I wasn't sold on using him before as I never got good use out of him, but faced him recently when playing Leve into Parker.

His aura that shuts down triggers was actually very good versus the Amalgam team and their defense triggers.

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Also considering Lazarus for certain strats or crews where hanging in bunch is going to happen. A tough nut, shockwave to deplete hand, auto heals, Parker crew has lots of gunners in case Lazarus pushes and can hold ground. Can also give cover to close by gunners

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4 hours ago, nunorod said:

Also considering Lazarus for certain strats or crews where hanging in bunch is going to happen. A tough nut, shockwave to deplete hand, auto heals, Parker crew has lots of gunners in case Lazarus pushes and can hold ground. Can also give cover to close by gunners

Oh I definitely need to try this out! 

:D

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On 8/12/2019 at 9:55 AM, malyzubor said:

Sue really misses Life of crime, imho. I usually play with the Emissary for its bonus action scheme dropping, which can provide sufficient markers to fuel Life of crime, combined with Parker's drawing their attention, for everyone who needs it.  I like to hire Sue when I expect mobile melee opponents or when I need some extra firepower or his utility action (to remove scraps and corspes), but I find myself hiring a single gunslinger more often than Sue, mainly because their AP difference. But I might be missing something important, of course.

Dont forget Sue got a Fist full of Scrip too. This was often very useful for Ruins or Leyline.

 

 

Are you Guys useing 1 or 2 Gunslingers if ypu switch Sue out?

 

My common List with a good success was

 

Parker

Doc

Mad Dog Brackett

Sue

Gunslinger

Bandido

Prospector

Emissary

 

 

 

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I need to give the gunslinger more chances, but I only run one regardless. I can see him doing well as long as I don’t want him to be getting in the opponent’s face. Sue is great for defensively shutting down triggered and even charging into an enemy to keep defensive trigger shut off

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7 hours ago, NAX3011 said:

My common List with a good success was

 

Parker

Doc

Mad Dog Brackett

Sue

Gunslinger

Bandido

Prospector

Emissary

This is my most common list two, although I tend to swap Sue for Midnight stalker quite a lot. I would also swap him for Pride (in addition to his cheating denial, he can help a lot with destroying of your opponent's hand), if I had him. Very occasionaly I would change him with the Child+Bandido for more pseudo-obeys.

I haven't tried two gunslingers yet.

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5 minutes ago, nunorod said:

What about the prospector? How do you really use them, mainly for the soulstones?

On the first turn, I usually just make them Drop Scheme marker and Appraise it. Once the scheme markers start to appear on the table, prospectors push towards them to move slowly in a better positions with their Dowsing stick. They usually just spend their activations scheming (either with "I've struck the soulstone" or just with interact) and appraising unless, they get some scheme marker "for free" (e.g. with Parker's Drawing their attention), then they walk too. In the last turns, they are usually in a good place to help with some schemes and strats.

Occasionaly, they attack with "I've struck the soulstone" to drag melee opponents out of combat with your bandits not to shoot into the fray (and freeing your models, too) or to get enemies out of concealment. But it often requires quite a good position, so unless your opponent rushes to your half, you can usually use it only later in the game.

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5 hours ago, malyzubor said:

This is my most common list two, although I tend to swap Sue for Midnight stalker quite a lot. I would also swap him for Pride (in addition to his cheating denial, he can help a lot with destroying of your opponent's hand), if I had him. Very occasionaly I would change him with the Child+Bandido for more pseudo-obeys.

I haven't tried two gunslingers yet.

Gunslinger against Ophelia, Perdita, Basse, Seamus seems good.

 

I don't know what to do with Pride.

5 hours ago, nunorod said:

What about the prospector? How do you really use them, mainly for the soulstones?

First turn I activate him after Gunslinger, Bandidio, Mad Dog and give him stunned for another SS. Do his 0 action (wich counts now as a 1action) and try to get the trigger to place a Schememarker.

After that I take a walk action for a better position.

 

The Schememarker is for a Gunslinger, Badidio or Mad Dog to get fast in Turn 2.

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2 minutes ago, NAX3011 said:

I don't know what to do with Pride.

I haven't tried him yet, but apart from his cheating denial I guess his "This song is all about you" puts and insane press on your opponent's hand along with Parker's Stick up!.

 

5 minutes ago, NAX3011 said:

First turn I activate him after Gunslinger, Bandidio, Mad Dog and give him stunned for another SS. Do his 0 action (wich counts now as a 1action) and try to get the trigger to place a Schememarker.

This would not work, as you cannot use triggers while stunned.

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Instead, use an interact action to put down a scheme marker, then Appraise it... ~25% chance you turn it into an enemy marker.

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I just red the rules again and it says that triggers that does not specify when they happening they happen after succeeding, so IMO thist has a huge impact in the Deftrigger of the Gunslinger and maybe he needs the Wanted Criminal Upgrade to use some SS to get the Mask.

His def trigger happens if he wins the duel + has a mask against the attack he resolves. Not easy to achieve.

This puts him into another light for me.

 

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1 hour ago, NAX3011 said:

I just red the rules again and it says that triggers that does not specify when they happening they happen after succeeding, so IMO thist has a huge impact in the Deftrigger of the Gunslinger and maybe he needs the Wanted Criminal Upgrade to use some SS to get the Mask.

His def trigger happens if he wins the duel + has a mask against the attack he resolves. Not easy to achieve.

This puts him into another light for me.

 

Gunslinger can’t use soulstones, upgrades doesn’t grant that. But yeah his def trigger isn’t easy to achieve 

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31 minutes ago, NAX3011 said:

I just red the rules again and it says that triggers that does not specify when they happening they happen after succeeding, so IMO thist has a huge impact in the Deftrigger of the Gunslinger and maybe he needs the Wanted Criminal Upgrade to use some SS to get the Mask.

His def trigger happens if he wins the duel + has a mask against the attack he resolves. Not easy to achieve.

This puts him into another light for me.

 

Wanted criminal for what? You'll never walk with him, so no focus for free. You really don't want to use the "Expert Thief" when you can use your gun. Protection Money is good, but is way better on Parker.

On 8/13/2019 at 4:33 AM, malyzubor said:

You have got a very good point in the ram used for Sue's attack, however, I am not sure if I agree with the rest. In my small experience, I have not been able to use walk the line very often for the purposes of pushing and drawing only. The circumstances it requires are not easy to have and it often makes you push the target in a direction, you don't really need. And the only real benefit is often only the card drawn. For an AP of a 8ss model, it does not seem enough for me. In addition, you usually cannot use it turn one effectively, when you need to move Maddog closer to the action the most.

The second card drawn from Grit is even more situational as staying below half of his life is usually a matter of 2-3 attacks against Sue and he rarely draws more that 1-2(if lucky) card per game.

As for the fast options of yours, I cannot think of a situation, where I would takt the Student instead of another Bandido and if I have a spare 8 for the Malifaux child, I would rather spend it copying the bandit raid.

But I will sure give him more time on the table to try to work with him more. I just currently feel him far more situational model than the gunslinger.

Don't get me wrong, I think that both are situational. But usually I don't see the point of bringing 2 Gunslinger instead of 1 and Sue.

To get the max from Grit, you have to go all in with Sue, ofc. And with walk the line, it's about timing. You always want Mad Dog to be on his half life for that nasty :+flip

8 hours ago, nunorod said:

What about the prospector? How do you really use them, mainly for the soulstones?

SS + Appraise + marker removals + I've struck SS if possible. Also is awesome for some schemes.

 

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51 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Charging. 

Why take an action to walk when you can take an action to walk and shoot? 

Maybe something does not generate actions from charging.

2 gremlins in a guillie siut, Jonathan Reichart for example.

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37 minutes ago, NAX3011 said:

Maybe something does not generate actions from charging.

2 gremlins in a guillie siut, Jonathan Reichart for example.

But those are going to be the a very low % of the models, so it doesn't justify the price for the upgrade, specially not in the Gunslingers, since they don't want to be within 6" of the enemy when they can be at 12" (so you will only take advantage of the focus part).

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1 hour ago, NAX3011 said:

Maybe something does not generate actions from charging.

2 gremlins in a guillie siut, Jonathan Reichart for example.

 

Do you mean Disgused?  There are 18 models currently in the game with Disguised; exponentially more when Perdita is on the table, which I would be more worried about.

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1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

 

Do you mean Disgused?  There are 18 models currently in the game with Disguised; exponentially more when Perdita is on the table, which I would be more worried about.

It could be disgused not sure about.

2 hours ago, ShinChan said:

But those are going to be the a very low % of the models, so it doesn't justify the price for the upgrade, specially not in the Gunslingers, since they don't want to be within 6" of the enemy when they can be at 12" (so you will only take advantage of the focus part).

Sure its correct what you are saying about the upgrafe, but your statement of you never move is just wrong. Sry.

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