Any thoughts on Youko?

[Absolution Black]

I started malifaux way back in 1st but hardly played in 2nd.

Decided to jump back in now 3rd is out so ordered the rulebook and the Youko starter set as though I concentrated on Guild previously I thought new edition, new faction.

Youko I haven't heard much about but I liked the look of he models so took the plunge.

So, after the testing does anyone have any thoughts about her, play style, model synergies etc?

[Jesy Blue]

Agrssively non-violent.

You will ruin hands, prevent cheating, keep the opponent at negative flips, and then... maybe....you might kill them, and then they'll be glad it's finally over.

[Morgan Vening]

17 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Agrssively non-violent.

You will ruin hands, prevent cheating, keep the opponent at negative flips, and then... maybe....you might kill them, and then they'll be glad it's finally over.

Yeah, they look a lot like M2E (or M3E) Nellie in that they don't directly take you off the table, and you'll probably need to hire in a V/OOK to remove key models.

They do it in a different way, but that seems to be how they work best, scoring the points that win you the game, but otherwise not changing the game state much.

[SerZaka]

43 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

you'll probably need to hire in a V/OOK to remove key models.

I don't know. 3 models (Bill and Kabuki) with min 3 /stat 6 . Hinamatsu with hers 4-5 attacks . And don't forget about the Kunoichi : if you discard a Ram you get the Unexpected Ferocity trigger that brings their damage to 4/5/6 (!) against someone Distracted by Youko (one Riddles in the Dark is enough). 

 

I think they have all what they need to take down someone if they want to . The lures from the Geisha can help you to take the designed target out of position too.

[Morgan Vening]

21 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

I don't know. 3 models (Bill and Kabuki) with min 3 /stat 6 . Hinamatsu with hers 4-5 attacks . And don't forget about the Kunoichi : if you discard a Ram you get the Unexpected Ferocity trigger that brings their damage to 4/5/6 (!) against someone Distracted by Youko (one Riddles in the Dark is enough). 

I think they have all what they need to take down someone if they want to . The lures from the Geisha can help you to take the designed target out of position too.

You're correct. And I completely forgot about Hinamatsu for some reason.

I'm hoping Kabuki are as tough as they look on paper, but for me, I'm really concerned about their vulnerability before they engage, or certain crews ignoring Friendly Fire, and just shooting them to pieces. You bring a great point with Lure access, that it should mitigate some of that.

I'm not sold on the Kunoichi's Ferocity. It's a model that can't stone, and needs a lot of investment (Riddles won't do it, as the opponent will have removed one Distracted when figuring out the duel), to get a big bonus is gonna happen sometimes, sure, but rarely when you need to. I'd much rather keep the large Rams for Bill, and make sure to plant the opponent in a more consistent manner.

EDIT: Doh, Tools for the Job. Makes it more easily accessible, but still requires a lot to put D+3 on someone and hope Condition Removal or Assist doesn't ruin your day.

Though overall, you're right, they're a substantially more killy force than I initially thought.

[Kharnage]

56 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

 (Riddles won't do it, as the opponent will have removed one Distracted when figuring out the duel),

"Distracted +X:  This model's Actions that target an enemy model suffer a  - to their duel. After resolving such an Action, the value of this Condition is lowered by one."

The Distracted condition only affects the model's actions, not its attempts to dodge others' actions. The +2 distracted will remain, assuming it hasn't gotten rid of it some other way.

[Morgan Vening]

3 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Distracted +X:  This model's Actions that target an enemy model suffer a  - to their duel. After resolving such an Action, the value of this Condition is lowered by one.

The Distracted condition only affects the model's actions, not its attempts to dodge others' actions. 

So, two for two on me being stupid.

Dunno why I thought Distracted worked on defense. Probably just figured it was the opposite of Focus.

Also, the last line about when it would be removed, would have been enough to counteract my point.

 

[retnab]

Kabuki are a critical part of the crew.  Assuming they haven't changed from the beta, having both Lure and Greatsword means they're valuable at basically any stage of the game.  Plus, their Distraction aura lets Youko herself destroy them with Blackmail and Backroom Dealings unless they want to burn Focused or soulstones just to get back to a straight against it - which is kind of a win on its own lol.  The more things that let Youko use her We Own You trigger more often the better.

[santaclaws01]

12 hours ago, retnab said:

Kabuki are a critical part of the crew.  Assuming they haven't changed from the beta, having both Lure and Greatsword means they're valuable at basically any stage of the game.  Plus, their Distraction aura lets Youko herself destroy them with Blackmail and Backroom Dealings unless they want to burn Focused or soulstones just to get back to a straight against it - which is kind of a win on its own lol.  The more things that let Youko use her We Own You trigger more often the better.

Can confirm. I did this to @retnab enough in the beta.

[Da Git]

Just be aware that the target model is engaged by the Kabuki Warrior and therefore cannot be made to charge or take gun 🔫 actions. 

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

Just be aware that the target model is engaged by the Kabuki Warrior and therefore cannot be made to charge or take gun 🔫 actions. 

Geisha also have Distraction.

[Da Git]

6 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Geisha also have Distraction.

I know, but it's still limiting, have to be inside 2", outside 1". It's doable for sure if you have the cards and set up for it, but it's still very limiting for just coming up. 

[Vangerdahast]

 

I don't have for the moment Ten Thunders Crews but I am interested in Qi and Gong.

 

I own a Vintage Misaki (for the killing) and Kunoichi.

 

I could buy the following:

 

Youko Box

Hinamatsu

Bunraku

Charm Warder

Tanuki

 

Would buy Kabuki Warriors when they will be available.

 

Do you think that it will be enough to run a Qi and Gong Crew or what will you add or remove?

 

Do you think that Youko can handle all Stratégies and Schemes. It seems that Reckoning can be hard for her.

 

[Da Git]

@Vangerdahast that's the basics. I'd recommend having a play around in-keyword to find out what they can and can't do. Between Hina, Bill, future Kabuki Warriors, killing is not that hard. Even Charm Warders, Kunoichi and Bunraku are quite adept at it. 

The biggest thing I've found Qi & Gong can lack in is fire-power. I really like Fuhatsu combined with a Tanuki to feed him focused. Potentially 3 focused shots a turn does serious harm! 

A basic all comers list would be:

Youko (6ss cache), Choyo, Bill, Hina, Fuhatsu, 2 Bunraku/Kunoichi (Bunraku are better schemers, Kunoichi are more versatile glass cannons), 1 Tanuki. 

[Vangerdahast]

 

@Da Git: Thank you. I will consider Fuhatsu. So no need to have Misaki as a beater in Qi and Gong Crews (would love to play my vintage one)?

 

[SerZaka]

Misaki isn't a mindless beater anymore. You can score more or less every scheme you need with her . She is so versatile now 

[Da Git]

I'd say you could throw Misaki into most crews reasonably easily as she's fairly independent of her crew.

I'd try to hunt down a Shang though as he brings a lot for 3ss. Arcane Reservoir, Channelled Healing and another node for Misaki to unbury from. This last point is especially important as you can run Misaki down one flank and threaten the other with Shang. 

A potential crew could be:

• Youko - 4-6cache 
• Chiyo - 0
• Kabuki Warrior - 8
• Hinamatsu - 9
• Bunraku/Kunoichi/Effissary - 6
• Misaki - 16
• Shang - 3
• Geisha or upgrade - 2-4

Kabuki, Geisha, Chiyo and Youko play together to get the most out of Distraction auras. Misaki and Shang take opposing flanks, Hinamatsu and 6ss model are flexible. 

6ss models:

Bunraku are amazing self-contained scheme runners/utility. Good defence with armour/disappear, great speed with Mv6 and Risky Manoeuvre bonus action (can drop 2 schemes in a turn), lure, good attack that can Stun or Min3 with triggers. 

Kunoichi, flexible but fragile. Probably the hardest to use, but can put out a lot of damage or rescue a model. 

Effissary, walk and focus (Storm of Shadows if needed) first two turns then go to town turn 3. The Emissary is a very good model and worth waiting for. 

[Zeroflatline]

1 hour ago, Da Git said:

A potential crew could be:

• Youko - 4-6cache 
• Chiyo - 0
• Kabuki Warrior - 8
• Hinamatsu - 9
• Bunraku/Kunoichi/Effissary - 6
• Misaki - 16
• Shang - 3
• Geisha or upgrade - 2-4

That could but an interesting! 

Tho shang would cost 5 (4ss+1 tax)

[Da Git]

4 hours ago, Zeroflatline said:

That could but an interesting! 

Tho shang would cost 5 (4ss+1 tax)

Damn! That's what I get for just assuming he was the standard 2ss for a totem... 

While he's still awesome, I think he becomes a bit more optional and would probably drop him or the Geisha... 

[Vangerdahast]

 

@Da Git and @Zeroflatline : Thanks for the advices. I will probably proxying for testing before diving into Ten Thunders.

 

[Da Git]

Qi & Gong Thoughts

 

So, something I’ve been working on is a bit of a rundown on my thoughts on the Qi & Gong crew as I've had a couple of games with them and found them really fun. The keyword’s strengths are disruption, debuffing and melee power, and its weaknesses are a distinct lack of shooting damage (we only have Charm Warder's Jinx) and mobility (no Flight/places or the like). However these weaknesses are easily covered by the Ten Thunders Plethora of amazing Versatile models and it’s pretty well impossible to fit all the toys in a single list.

First of all, let’s get into Leverage, the Keyword’s signature ability, this gives the opponent the choice of do they scheme early and give you lots of Pos flips or do they hold out and hope there’s enough time at the end (especially in early tournaments where you might not finish your games). I use these on my earlier activations to try and draw out my opponent’s cards which allows me to save my higher cards for my main models at the end of the turn.

Model Thoughts

Youko – Really, really wants her triggers so either bring a decent cache or reserve cards for her activation. Ideally, Youko wants to be within 6” of enemy models to get use of Calm Demeanour and Informants but doesn’t want to be engaged as she has a decided average melee attack for a master. For Her Exotic Umbrella-sword™ should really mostly be used as a last resort and sadly, the built-in trigger is almost never going to be able to be used (that 12” is huge!)… Defensively, she’s a bit on the average side as her main ability here is Serene Countenance which can be a trap as it encourages Focus which gives them a Pos flip to damage and with Df5, they’ll generally be able to bully their way to a straight damage flip making her 10wds disappear fast. To counter this, you’ll need to proactively apply the Distracted condition and use things like Challenge and Take the Hit to get out of dodge. For Informants, I’ve generally been playing the safe option and looking at the top card of my deck, but it could be interesting playing mind games with your opponent by looking at theirs!

All her main actions target Wp, so get those distraction auras in there to put the opponent on Neg flips and watch them cry!

• Riddles in The Dark is fantastic, and I've shut down masters with this action (although at that time there was no Assist... 😊). Its 10” range, also makes it the safer choice. The card draw trigger is always appreciated too. Note the timing, I think this is the only trigger that gives a choice, draw Immediately if you have more cards then the opponent and draw After Resolving if you have less.
• Her big action and the one you want the suit for the trigger is Blackmail. Without the trigger, I've found most people are willing to give you Pass tokens. If this is the case, you’ll generally want to go earlyish with her so you can actually use them. However, you really want them discarding cards for Calm Demeanour which is why you need to get the trigger to make that choice much harder for the opponent. As you can only target each model once, choose your target order wisely. I’ll generally save the model I really want the trigger for until last to drain their hand first.
• Backroom Dealings is a fantastic Bonus action and with its high Stat of 7, you should be able to get it off by targeting someone with low Wp or in a Distraction aura. I usually use this action before the others so I can see what my opponent has which helps for target priority. Early game, try for the Crow Trigger and encourage scheming. This also makes Riddles much better

Chiyo – The two ways I’ve been using her are to either run her up a flank to give pass tokens or scheme or keep her back a touch and then move in to apply Slow (try for Pilfer!), Biting Insults and to threaten scheme markers. Misinformation is amazing if you use it before Youko's Backroom Dealings' Risking it all trigger! I usually go for the latter option as that’s more fun, but it is also riskier and harder to pull off. Like Youko, all her attacks target Wp, however unlike Mum, she has a low stat so really wants those distraction auras to get any kind of consistency.

Bill – I’m a big fan of Bill. He makes a fantastic bodyguard for Youko which she really needs with Challenge and Heroic Intervention (this is particularly good with the Crows trigger to disrupt their schemes or apply free damage, especially since it only needs a 5) while boosting her up to Df6 against Gun attacks (& a neg to damage). His Naginata has a solid damage output (I generally try for the Masks trigger to move difficult enemies away from Youko. Stoic Nod rounds him out with a bit of healing (and Focus with trigger) to friends. This is generally a last resort, but it has saved Youko before, so don’t overlook it!

Kabuki Warriors (Beta version) – Fast with Mv6, Distraction aura, Lure, Greatsword, Combat finesse these guys are great (although mine always die to Olivia Bernard, seriously, she's a beast in melee!). A New Horizon can be game winning but should never be relied on as it needs the Tomes. This guy’s a great model to give an upgrade to; Trained Ninja too for protection (stealth and hide in Concealing terrain) and From the Shadows lets you double Lure your own models first turn and Silent protector lets him assist Bill in bodyguard duties with HtK, Challenge and Take the Hit (particularly good against Melee attacks as they can’t cheat against him!).

Charm Warders – A mid-range damage piece that target Wp so really combo these guys up with Distraction Auras! Jinx is my preferred attack as it has good range and gives auto Injured, so I’ll generally try to activate them first to soften a model up for the rest of the crew to finish. And again, go for the Crow trigger to empty their hand! Chaos Theory is as the name implies, very chaotic, it can be absolutely amazing with them trashing high cards of the suit you choose (or just high cards in general) or pants with them trashing off suit low cards depending on luck. Their Chi mechanic gives them lots of options to ensure you get their actions off (I’ll generally use it for the first Jinx to get Injured out or for Chaos theory if it’ll turn a failure into a pass, to get the trigger off or I don’t have a low card to cheat). They also offer a lot of counter-tech with their Barrier and Lantern.

Kunoichi – The only Qi & Gong model I haven't put them on the field yet (they were pretty boring up until towards the end of the beta and then I was playing other crews), but they look really solid. However even more than most of the Qi & Gong's finest, you really need to keep them safe as these Girls on the Avenue are as fragile as glass. Disguised, Bullet Proof and Nihilism ain’t gunna cut it if the opponent wants them dead (although it might take more than 1 activation if their only way of engaging is charging). They seem like they want to be in the second wave after Youko’s handed out mass distract so their Shuriken become 3/4/5 and Exotic weapons 4/5/6. I’ve got your back is helpful for a crew of fragile models.

Geisha – Another fragile model. But offers the best Lure in the crew at Stat 6 (ties with Hina), and with a Tome, her Sharp Wit gives that sweet, sweet combo of Slow & Distracted to really nullify a model's activation (about the closest thing we have to Paralyse in this edition. She comes with her own Distraction aura, making Sharp Wit fairly easy to go off and get the triggers you need.

Hinamatsu – This four-armed, five-bladed Puppet-daemon is just awesome and will generally be in every crew unless they declare Molly (Lethe’s Caress), Kirai (Vengeance), Nephilim (Black Blood) or lots of Terror as she goes for weight of attacks over high damage. She potentially get 6 in an activation between Flurry and Onslaught! In addition to this, her stat of 6+ makes hitting pretty easy. However, to balance this her damage track is only 2/3/4. Her other trigger is Armour Piercing which while niche, can be critical. Her speed is wonderful too. Mv 6 with Rush gives her a 9” threat range off the first Action or 15” if she charges on the second action. Defence-wise, she’s solid too rocking Armour 2 and a Bonus to give Distracted in a pulse. Wicked makes it hard for the opponent to disengage if they’re low on health.

Bunraku – These guys are my go-to scheme runner in the keyword and I generally take one in every list as they’re just so flexible. Mv 6 and Risky Manoeuvre means they can get 9” and then use their Lure. They’re hard for flanking models to take out with Armour 1 and built-in Disappear. Their Brutal Blade, while only Stat 5, have decent damage and good triggers with the ever useful Crit Strike and the absolutely stunning Daze (see what I did there 😊).

 

Versatile Models – In my opinion, the main Versatile models to consider are those those that cover the keyword’s weaknesses, I really like Fuhatsu (+ a Tanuki to give him Focus), or a Samurai to provide some serious firepower (and armour ignore with the Samurai) or the Effissary, Emissary or Dawn Serpent for Flight (and their all-round awesomeness) if the board/strats & Schemes require it.

 

Sample Lists

A General all-comers list:

• Youko – 4ss cache
• Chiyo – free
• Bill – 9
• Kabuki warrior – 8
• Hinamatsu – 9
• Bunraku – 6
• Fuhatsu – 9
• Tanuki – 5

Youko, Bill, Chiyo, Kabuki generally group together on one flank, Fuhatsu and Tanuki cover the centre or where has the best lines of sight and Hina & Bunraku are lone wolves.

The list I want to try next to really try and milk Distraction auras.

• Youko – 4ss cache
• Chiyo – free
• Bill – 9
• Kabuki warrior – 8
• Trained ninja – 2
• 2 Charm Warders - 14
• Geisha – 4
• Hinamatsu – 9

 

Thanks for reading if you made it this far!

[retnab]

One thing I want to point out is Bill's Debt of Gratitude trigger is kind of ludicrious - as long as you have an enemy within 6" (and with this being THE Lure crew, no problem lol), stoning for a  and hitting a 5 forces the enemy remove one of their Scheme Markers from anywhere on the board without them being able to do anything about it since it's a simple duel.  On top of that, it's not once-per-activation so with Fast he can burn 3 Scheme Markers off the board and totally ruin the opponent's chances of scoring their 2nd Scheme or getting the End VP!

[frumpypigskin]

On 7/7/2019 at 7:09 AM, retnab said:

One thing I want to point out is Bill's Debt of Gratitude trigger is kind of ludicrious - as long as you have an enemy within 6" (and with this being THE Lure crew, no problem lol), stoning for a  and hitting a 5 forces the enemy remove one of their Scheme Markers from anywhere on the board without them being able to do anything about it since it's a simple duel.  On top of that, it's not once-per-activation so with Fast he can burn 3 Scheme Markers off the board and totally ruin the opponent's chances of scoring their 2nd Scheme or getting the End VP!

Read: Kill Bill (hehe) or don't take a scheme marker scheme...

[bedjy]

On 7/6/2019 at 11:09 PM, retnab said:

One thing I want to point out is Bill's Debt of Gratitude trigger is kind of ludicrious - as long as you have an enemy within 6" (and with this being THE Lure crew, no problem lol), stoning for a  and hitting a 5 forces the enemy remove one of their Scheme Markers from anywhere on the board without them being able to do anything about it since it's a simple duel.  On top of that, it's not once-per-activation so with Fast he can burn 3 Scheme Markers off the board and totally ruin the opponent's chances of scoring their 2nd Scheme or getting the End VP!

If you've got something like 2-3 stones left at turn 5, something has probably been played wrong. Also, it is easy to place a few additionnal scheme marker so that you can pay bill's fee.

[Cursed25]

3 hours ago, bedjy said:

If you've got something like 2-3 stones left at turn 5, something has probably been played wrong. Also, it is easy to place a few additionnal scheme marker so that you can pay bill's fee.

it is easy to circumvent Bill's trigger but it force the opponent to waste actions for it and this is a good way to help you win! I've found that the big differences between winning and losing is how many actions can you put toward completing the strat/schemes. Most players will get distracted by killing your big mean beater and focus him! So if he has less actions to do what's important you have a big advantage!