Rotten Belles - better than I thought

[thewrathchilde]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

@thewrathchilde How much use are you getting from “Hello Love”?

More than you might think. Usually in every game with him I get at least 2-3 extra attacks out of him on critical turns sometimes more. With 2 x Doxies, a Nurse, and the Dazed trigger on his gun I have a fair amount of ways to move things around usually.  I don't know if I have every played him in M3E since the reorientation without 2 x Doxies and the Nurse is a staple for me as well. 

The list I played at game night last night also had Archie (I know) in it so "Bowled Over" is another source (though not as reliable). Most of the time the Nurse is near him so she can heal/move/give focus and she has Daze built in on her attack so can push things to him as well. If it is something that is low defense she can hit it and push it to him so he can attack, then attack it again and push it back out so he isn't engaged and can shoot. In a game I had a couple of weeks ago with him against @Gaston's Titania/Zoraida crew on the first couple of turns I was able to an extra 2-3 attacks per turn into Knights and Waldgeists between Daze from his gun and Daze from the Nurse. 

Usually with the amount of mobility support in the crew I can move/Secret Passage/or push him to 4" away from a model and then if I have the cards, shoot it, Daze to push it in for the free attack to finish it off and then continue on. Occasionally you can get him within 4" of two models and he can shoot, daze, Hello Love the first model. Remove it's corpse for Celebration, shoot, Daze, and Hello Love the second one too and still have two actions left for charging, scheming, etc. 

I am less successful in getting the Belle to set it up for him though.....with the Doxies and Nurse it happens every game. 

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I need to try a dedicated build for it, but every single time I’ve left Seamus out on the table in a position to potentially use it he always gets hit with a massive spike of dmg. Df 4 is just asking for a focused shot to the face, and at least to me, it always happens.

I don’t think he’s been hit for less than 5 any time he has been hit, which I admit is rare, since I don’t generally leave him on the table for easy reprisal.

Yeah, I Yo-Yo him a lot as he is not near as resilient as he was in M2E. Half of the CCK's job (maybe more) is just Mistaken Identity and then run back and hide to keep him safe if they have any real threats. The Nurse helps out a lot also since with positioning she can Bedside Manner him out of trouble and back behind terrain and then heal, etc later. 

I have thought about running 2 x Nurses with him instead of 1 and the Belle that was in my list last night but their isn't a lot of fat in my list to pay for the 2 extra points. Last night I only had 4 SS with him and couldn't see going lower. 

[Ender101]

So just returning to the game, with Rezzers being the smallest of my three factions, so take with a vial of preservatives and a sprinkle of salt. 

I have been a part of several game/new edition design adventures, and one thing I learned is that it is important to listen to the complaints and opinions of people in the faction who have used the piece often. From the outside it can be easy to judge based on how they would perform either in other factions or only hype their good points without properly acknowledging the limitations that they have on the table. On paper a piece may look strong, but there are pieces in every faction that aren't as good after putting them on the table, once Mali-reality meets Theory-faux and leaves the later lying on the ground, looking at the sky wondering where it all went wrong. Having players say how great the piece would be in their faction doesn't do much to advance the conversation or acknowledge the potential issue with the piece in the faction they exist inside.

Reading through the thread, and having missed the beta as well as skipping on out the majority of 2E, I have a limited perspective to just what they are and their recent history. However, to me Red Chapel looks and feels like its caught in between design spaces, and suffers for it.

I think my argument would be: just because something is not useless does not mean it is useful. I have not played them, but if the people who have played as many games as fetid and iron claim to, and back that up with reasonable arguments and discussion, then for my script, that carries more weight than how they look on paper.

If you want to add more weight to your argument, be like Kharnage and play them in a game or two and allow your perspective to evolve and then make your case one way or the other and add to the discussion.

But that's just my two soul stones.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hmm, interesting, as I don't think I've ever gotten a Hello Love Attack off. 2 of his actions each turn are almost always the jump in and the jump out, and often behind blind corners or into rooms with inconveniently positioned doors. I've mostly used the CCK to keep his threat level high by keeping large sections of the board under threat, or to keep a jump spot ready if I'm using Seamus as a model for Outflank, or for some other positional element. I tend to charge a lot though, since my terrain is generally a full set of the Plascraft Colored Malifaux line there is often enough blocking terrain to jump away after a Charge, so I generally don't walk to set up a Daze attack push. Interesting thoughts. Thanks.

[SoulGambit]

Dandy?

And looking it over, Redchapel does feel very... "You bring an extremely versatile master with defacto 4+ AP that can teleport. Also other people are kinda there, too."

Offhand, with my grand total zero table time, starting point for a Redchapel List is looking like...

Seamus, CCK, Carrion Effigy, and Dead Doxy x2 for 26 points. Then it is two of: Bete Noir, Nurse, Asura Roten, The Forgotten Marshel, Archie, Dead Rider

With upgrades as deemed valuable.

[thewrathchilde]

50 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

so I generally don't walk to set up a Daze attack push.

I typically don’t walk with him either if I can help it..... sometimes though it’s worth it. Same amount of actions as Secret Passage and if it puts him in the right spot.

Between Charges, Trail of Confusion,  Secret Passage and the Pushes from the Doxies and Nurse and/or Ride with Me he can often get to where he needs to be without walking. Ideally I want every action of his to matter- attack, scheme, strategy, etc. 

[thewrathchilde]

44 minutes ago, SoulGambit said:

Offhand, with my grand total zero table time, starting point for a Redchapel List is looking like...

Seamus, CCK, Carrion Effigy, and Dead Doxy x2 for 26 points. Then it is two of: Bete Noir, Nurse, Asura Roten, The Forgotten Marshel, Archie, Dead Rider

Effigy can’t heal Seamus, the CCK, or he Nurse so rarely makes my lists with him. Bete, Asura, and the Marshall don’t either.

Last night I ran: Seamus w/GST (2), CCK (0), Manos (10), Archie (10), Doxy (6), Doxy (6), Nurse (7), Belle (5) + 4SS

Was Corrupted Idols- Flank, Power Ritual, Search, Harness, Assassinate, and Dig. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Interesting, I don't tend to take GST on Seamus. I basically always take the Whisper for the minor card draw, but also to make sure I rarely have to cheat a card to use Secret Passage, and I know if my cards are going to be bad so I know if I need to not commit him for an attack run.

Carrion Emissary is a common inclusion most games. 

[thewrathchilde]

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Interesting, I don't tend to take GST on Seamus. I basically always take the Whisper for...

There are good arguments for either. With The Whisper and the right targets he can get some decent efficiency and card draw. In this pool I wanted the flexibility to able to push Idols with all of my big pieces if needed. 

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Carrion Emissary is a common inclusion most games. 

He frequently makes my Seamus crews as well. In this game with Idols I wanted the leaps and heals/regeneration more. 

[Saduhem]

During Beta Belles were mostly disruption for me. It takes an ungodly amount of effort to kill them for 5 stones. They also had Fast/Focused on most turns.

The amount of disruption they cause made me always bring 2+ Sybelle. I wasn’t too worried about killing (especially with Mcmourning/Kirai/Reva in faction) and Seamus/Bete were always exactly where I wanted them to be on the board scoring me points. So while they scored VP, Sybelle + belles were just preventing my opponent from doing the same and dragging models near Sybelle. Disguised is so, so good, and stacking penalties for ranged attacks is the easiest it’s ever been. 

This was also before they got their current attack, which turns them up a notch too.

If I can find the battle reports I posted during Beta I’ll put them back up.

 

[Deathinabox]

Whisper is also cool on Seamus because CCK can have Seamus claim his kill and draw a card

[SoulGambit]

I meant emissary, not effigy, my bad.

 

And also I just learned that totems cost 0 when their master is the leader. Very nice.

Manos and/or Archie seem like kind of *the* powerhouse objective runmers for Rezzers right now, even out of keyword.

[dannydb]

20 minutes ago, Deathinabox said:

Whisper is also cool on Seamus because CCK can have Seamus claim his kill and draw a card

I had not thought of that! Yes sound good

 

Yes do love seamus..... Just a shame about his crew being so underwhelming... 

 

Generally just take the corpse package 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Archie, as he currently is configured, should have cost 11 or 12 stones in my opinion. He’s an absolute bargain for ressers in general, and a ridiculous steal for Molly. I would look for him to be about as ubiquitous as Nekima was last edition in competitive crews.

[Gnomezilla]

1 minute ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Archie, as he currently is configured, should have cost 11 or 12 stones in my opinion. He’s an absolute bargain for ressers in general, and a ridiculous steal for Molly. I would look for him to be about as ubiquitous as Nekima was last edition in competitive crews.

...not at all?

(I have never understood you when you used that metaphor. Unless you mean Henchman Hardcore, where her overcasting did not matter?)

[Saduhem]

Archie is great, but he gets killed pretty fast, and that’s ok. I had him melt to Carver and Teddy many times. I had daydreams pelt him to death with those stats!

I’m very happy that he got flurry back, but the inability to gain focus usually translates in lots of min damage hits.

I like his price point, especially considering that he’s in a very low-damage keyword. I remember when he didn’t have numbskull... putting him on the table was a sorrowful experience.

[NoahScape]

90 percent of my actions with Seamus are focus, secret passage shoot and depending on what happens, secret passage again, move away, charge, or shoot again if I’m near a corpse marker. 

Whisper is stapled to his card. 

[NoahScape]

I will say I’ve been testing a new Seamus list and of the three that has faced it all say it’s the strongest and scariest Seamus list I’ve put together. Belles aren’t in it... neither is Sybelle... 

[Kharnage]

So tonight, I played 
Seamus with The Whisper
Copycat Killer
Mourner w/ Grave Spirit's Touch
Mourner w/ Grave Spirit's Touch
Rotten Belle
Rotten Belle
Carrion Effigy
Sybelle
8 stones

I played into
Viktoria Chambers w/ Servant of Dark Powers
Viktoria Chambers w/ Servant of Dark Powers
Ronin 
Ronin
Ronin
Prospector
Prospector
Prospector
10 stones

Standard Deployment, Strategy was Turf War, and I picked Hold up their Forces and Vendetta (Sybelle -> Not Leader Viktoria), he picked Outflank and Claim Jump (Prospector)
Final score was 4-4, each of us not scoring the end game points of our schemes, and only two points for the strategy. 
Board had enough chest-high blocking walls and buildings for Seamus to have a good free run of the map, while still not being so choked that the Viks couldn't charge things.
Turn 1 the Viktorias did their 6 inch Dark Powers move and 2 inch push, and basically the Mourners pulsed out Blasphemous Ritual from their dropped free corpses while Viktorias waited for something to move up to charge. Seamus teleported up, shot one of the Viks, and stunned them forward for a free Hello Love attack, injured the same Vik, stabbed her again, and then teleported back with a Cause for Celebration. Not seeing this as an equivalent exchange, the Viks charged my forwardly placed sacrificial Belle, and forgot they had Disguised here (never again) and yet still, because of stun and the distance they had to cover, took both of their activations to kill her. The mourners, Sybelle, and the Carrion Effigy put one Vik down (funny what Decay aura does to Viks), and brought the other down to half HP. The Ronin and Prospectors move up the board after turning their 2 Turf War markers, digging soulstones for the Viks to use as they go, and the other Rotten Belle turns one of my Turf War markers.
Turn 2, The remaining Vik kills the Carrion Effigy, and the neg twisted Terrifying 11 (because of her + to wp from dead sister) on one of the Mourners, healing to full. Sybelle, Seamus, and a Mourner bring her down to 1 HP afterwards, scoring Vendetta in the process. A Ronin walk-charges in, fails terrifying on Sybelle, and suicides for more stones (The Viks are up to 18 stones burned at the end of turn 2) and a second Ronin walks-charges in, fails terrifying on Seamus. Remaining Ronin that was further away from the scrap approaches closer, and Prospectors take the sides and middle of the map for Claim Jump and Outflank. The surviving Belle approaches the Seamus-Ronin for hold up while Sybelle holds up living Vik. We each score the strategy.
Turn 3, Vik player flips his third king for initiative, Vik goes, kills Mourner and damages Sybelle for 4, healing a bit. Seamus manages to miss all but one swing of his four attacks, but the Belle charges in, hitting and pushing the Vik for Fast on the Belle, Focus on the Belle from Sybelle, and a free attack from Seamus (also missed). The 2nd and 3rd AP also yields hits for 3 damage a piece, totaling 8 damage in an activation (before stone use). Sybelle also whacks Vik with the push trigger, Seamus kills the Vik, Belle gets more focus and Fast again. Ronin hopped out, shoots Belle twice, hits once for min damage. Prospectors stay away from the fight, content to farm more stones. Copycat swaps Seamus to a Turf War marker for next turn. 
Turn 4, Vik player flips fourth king for initiative, moves Claim Jump Prospector back. Seamus flips Turf War marker, teleports up, focuses, and Cause For Celebration shoots Claim Jump Prospector to death. Sybelle and Copycat kill the last ronin, but right flank Prospector manages to bring Sybelle below half, preventing 2nd point of Vendetta. Belle walks-walks-interacts since she had Fast from last turn to get second Turf War point.
Turn 5, Seamus actually wins initiative, kills left flank Prospector but can't switch a Turf War marker he hasn't already switched, we call it since neither of us can score anything more, 4-4. 

Seamus is crazy. Gun is awesome, Intuition makes it reliable, and comboing Hello Love with the rest of his crew like M2e pounce is cake. The injured +1 on his melee seals the deal on his kit for me.
Belles did what I thought Belles would do for 5 stones. Eating 2 master's worth of efforts turn 1 out of a 5 stone model (and should have done more, had I remember Disguised earlier!) was wonderful. Then, the damage came out strong with the Scarlet Temptation from Sybelle to put some major hurt on the second Vik. The extra AP from Pounce also scored me my second strategy point. 
Sybelle also impressed me. While Undivided Attention never came up past the Ram trigger for heals, Bump in the Night was really good, handing the Belle 3 focus in 2 activations. Additionally, Min damage 3, a wealth of good triggers, a more Versatile Lure with two Distraction dispenser triggers, and 12 wounds for 10 stones and hard to wound was just too difficult to bring down. The + flip against half health models was really useful as well.
To be honest, Mourners were the least impressive models for me. I had taken them anticipating Taelor's Ruthless, and to take advantage of Scarlet Temptations with Feed on Grief, but I wish I'd taken Doxies instead. I'd have given up the free focus for Seamus from the corpses early, but other than that the Distracted-Spam and more HP (not to mention that Defensive trigger into Viks) would have served far better I think.

[Saduhem]

@Kharnage, I’ve had extremely similar experiences with Redchapel. My belles always have both Fast and Focused most of the game with Sybelle around and they eat a ton of high value actions between lures and being so AP intensive to take down. It’s so frustrating for melee beaters to deal with disguise.

Similarly to your game, I don’t get much out of mourners with Seamus (Although I do with Reva).

So yeah, I like the Sybelle + 2 Rotten belles a lot. Not sure if it’s going to be “meta” in the long run, but it hasn’t disappointed me yet.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Agree Seamus and the CCK themselves seem pretty good this edition.

Agree Mourners have never really worked well for me. For me their value rests entirely in how much you can leverage the focus she hands out.

On the rest of it, gonna have to agree to disagree. Very much respect your opinion even if I don’t agree with it.

I find it disappoints me every game. Never feel it delivers 20ss worth of value + the required activation and positioning requirements needed to make it work.

Carrion Emissary and Archie are the same cost and deliver lots more value with the added value of not needing to operate them in close proximity. They can, but don’t have to.

Which as an additional aside I really feel is critical. There is too much in the game that punishes you for bunching up:

Shockwaves

Blasts

Bloated Stench

Black Blood

Vent Steam

Pyre Markers

Ice Pillars (if raspy is the opposing leader)

and lots more. So many crews are running around punishing models that are close together that is just too dangerous to bunch up without massive rewards, which i don’t think Sybelle and belles provide. 

[thewrathchilde]

Yeah, I agree with @Fetid Strumpet on this one. I played a game last night to force myself to take Sybelle again to see how much benefit I could get out of Beckoning Call. My though was using is on my stuff to help position early and then combat with her or using Beckoning Call later to put things out of position to score or give Seamus more attacks or use her for combat since she is min 3 with good triggers.

My list: Seamus w/The Whisper (2), Copycat (0), Sybelle (10), Emissary (10), Doxy (6), Doxy (6), Nurse (7), Belle (5) + 4 SS. 

Game was Turf War (Corner); w/Harness, Search, Take Prisoner, Assassinate, Hold  Up

I took Harness and Search. I ended up pulling it out and winning by a few points. I was able to get the jb done and get some value out of Sybelle in a couple of situations. The Emissary performed well as always when he makes my list.

My biggest problem with Sybelle was the TN required for Beckoning call so that even when I am using it on my own stuff she was often failing the TN and I was having to choose between using a high card that I wanted to save for hit/damage with Seamus or wasting the action. It just isn't a reliable enough action with the TN to consistently top deck and I felt like it wasn't a good choice to even risk it half the time. 

 

[Da Git]

Why do you guys rate Doxies so highly? Is it mostly for their Seduction to put out mass Distraction? 

[Fetid Strumpet]

For me because they are a complete package, and the only such model he has in keyword. They hit as hard as can reasonably be expected for a 6ss model. They have an action that is useful, and kinda synergizes with the crew, and is usable at range, so they are good close up and at range, giving them far more flexibility in how they can be used. They have a useful bonus action, which has a good amount of flexibility in how it can be used, and they are fairly durable, and their defensive trigger makes melee beaters hesitate from starting an assault on them on first action.

I mean they aren’t amazing, but they are all around useful, and on top of that have synergies with the crew. That is not true of the majority of the models in the keyword.

[stonecrowe]

I like to think of them as the 'least worst' option. 

[thewrathchilde]

13 hours ago, Da Git said:

Why do you guys rate Doxies so highly? Is it mostly for their Seduction to put out mass Distraction? 

I rarely use Seduction. It can be useful sometimes to give someone Distracted before Seamus blasts into them with the .50....usually though I am primarily using them to move things around, scheme, or for their melee attack. 

With Disguised and the Regret defensive trigger they are pretty survivable against melee and can blunt the rush from aggressive crews. They are also great for helping position key models to maximize their effectiveness. They have a pretty good melee attack for their cost though I rarely get much benefit out of any of the triggers except the Tome trigger. Not too bad as scheme runners either.