Rotten Belles - better than I thought

[Paddywhack]

So I didn't think much of the Rotten Belles currently. Lure isn't nearly as useful as it used to be and they don't have much else. 

However, they have one very good redeeming feature. Their Attack action lets all negatives flips be treated as Positive Flips on the Damage Flip. So even with their measly 1/2/3 track, I was doing 5-6 damage pretty normally with them. One wounded Belle was able to tear apart The Judge pretty successfully. Some luck was involved with good attack Flips (edit: he was also slightly injured already and had bad attack flips on his activation), but his Hard to Wound actually gave me some dmg flips on a ++!  I think my opponent will be more hesitant around them going forward, but they really turned around my opinion of them. If nothing else they are excellent scheme runner hunters as they can Lure them in and kill a lot other minions without much help. 

Really want to get Seamus on the table now to try more of them out. I just took one with a Kirai crew thinking I might need the Lure for help in Turf War. 

[Morgan Vening]

Title of the thread, like the game, now entering it's third Edition.

Has any other model consistently been as good across all three iterations as Seamus's girls?

On a similar note, has Sybelle ever stood out as above mediocre?

[Paddywhack]

I want to give Sybelle a shot, I really do. i just don't play Seamus much and out of theme I can't see hiring her. 

I will say this though, before 3E I never had any interest in Seamus. Now I'm interested in playing him. Same goes for some other Masters I rarely thought about. 

[Deathinabox]

Played with Seamus recently. He's a lot of fun, probably not the most competitive, but he makes for a very enjoyable game. Sybelle doesn't really seem to be worth her cost, I'd rather take the carrion emmissary at the same cost as he provides good support for the crew and can make markers that Seamus can jump to.

The Belle's attack is extra cool as it targets willpower so the target will be on a negative.

[Paddywhack]

7 minutes ago, Deathinabox said:

The Belle's attack is extra cool as it targets willpower so the target will be on a negative.

Holy crap. Played that wrong, though would have made it even worse for my opponent. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Then you’re lucky. I find belles to be pretty worthless, and I tend to find of all the red chapel models (which aside from Seamus and the CCK are all pretty meh) belles are the models that tend to durdle the most and have the least impact on the game.

And the def flip is only on a neg if there is another model with scarlet temptation engaging them.

Seriously, compare them to Beckoners, there is some bizarre pricing rubric going on there.

[Trample]

1 hour ago, Deathinabox said:

The Belle's attack is extra cool as it targets willpower so the target will be on a negative.

Attacks by other friendly models. You would have to have two belles. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not two belles, two models with scarlet temptation within 1”

[Deathinabox]

22 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Not two belles, two models with scarlet temptation within 1”

Oh my bad, I read that wrong

[Paddywhack]

58 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Then you’re lucky. I find belles to be pretty worthless, and I tend to find of all the red chapel models (which aside from Seamus and the CCK are all pretty meh) belles are the models that tend to durdle the most and have the least impact on the game.

And the def flip is only on a neg if there is another model with scarlet temptation engaging them.

Seriously, compare them to Beckoners, there is some bizarre pricing rubric going on there.

I understand your response and know you've been pushing for a while for change. I do agree I think they may have been hit with the 'too good in M2E so nerf em' gun, but that built in ability on their attack is great for a 5SS model. It means most of the time they will be sitting on a +flip for damage which makes their dmg track better than it ought to be. I do wish they had just a little something extra. Their Lure trigger built in would have been thematic for RedChapel and crazy useful without being OP. 

I try not to compare anything to NB who I often find slightly OP. They always give me fits. 

[thewrathchilde]

Belles were a staple for me in M2E.... now they rarely make my lists and when they do it’s usually only one. Last couple of times I played Seamus I had 1 Belle in 50% of the games..... I almost always have Doxies and a Nurse though.

 

..... and I rarely, pretty much never, have Sybelle. Every game I want to play her- most I end up subbing her out for Archie, the Emissary, or something else.

[Fetid Strumpet]

In Red Chapel I’ve found Doxies the most solid of the meh models. Mostly because they have the whole package.

Good bonus action, though the range and TN limit it’s actual usefulness.

A perfectly serviceable melee attack with a good deal of triggers.

A mostly useful ranged attack that hands out distracted, so she can still do useful things at range.

Solidish defensive tech, with a very scary trigger threat for melee models.

I mean compared to the whole field they are kinda meh, but they are the top of the field of what Red Chapel got.

I haven’t been using Nurses, though I might try them. Their lack of full package, and needing to pay a SS tax has put me off them to begin with. I had a game against a triple December Acolyte list which used tools for the job 3 times to recycle the Red Joker made me rate that ability higher then I had.

I’ve personally had some pretty good success using Sloth in Red Chapel lists.

[thewrathchilde]

4 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

 

I haven’t been using Nurses, though I might try them. Their lack of full package, and needing to pay a SS tax has put me off them to begin with. I had a game against a triple December Acolyte list which used tools for the job 3 times to recycle the Red Joker...

I usually only have one but there is some great synergy in the crew with it. 

The built in trigger on their melee to push  things to Seamus for another attack has worked well for me.

I also think they are just good models. Bedside Manner is amazing. Tools for the Job is great. They are manipulative, provide a source of healing. Can hand out some focus. Get fast if they need to Assist.

I like one quite a bit in a number of non Experimental crews.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

On 6/28/2019 at 12:08 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

 

I haven’t been using Nurses, though I might try them. Their lack of full package, and needing to pay a SS tax has put me off them to begin with. I had a game against a triple December Acolyte list which used tools for the job 3 times to recycle the Red Joker made me rate that ability higher then I had.

I find Nurse extremely useful in Redchapelle. I would say she's one of the best models in the faction I have tried so far. Free Focus for Seamus, Tools for the Job, her ranged attack and Bedside Manners were worth these 7ss so far.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Like I said I’ll be giving them a try. There is only so much room for any support in the new edition.

[marke83]

Huh.. so what your typical Redchapel looks like then? I'm thinking Seamus, CCK, Bete, Mourner, Emissary/Molly..

[stonecrowe]

I use the Emissary every time, his ability to create LOS blocking terrain is indispensable for Seamus. Otherwise, Seamus doesn't need much support from his crew, so I tend to go for independently good models like Asura Roten, Anna Lovelace, Archie, Grave Golem etc. Depending on the pool. 

Then I fill the rest of the points with a doxy or two. 

[dannydb]

all my seamus lists are pritty much seamus with wisper (making sure you have the best possible attack run) asura with wisper, bete and then the carrion emmy (i might run effigy+upgreade if vendetta is in the pool)

then just add stuff from depending if you want extra killy from archie/grave golem, extra scheamy in mourners, healing/condition removal in bone piles etc

[marke83]

So if I'm making hasty conclusions, belles seem to suffer from opportunity cost more than from anything else.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I use the Carrion Emissary a lot.

Bete Noire only if the scheme pool pretty much forces the opponent to take scheme markers, or if not taking scheme marker schemes forces them into bad situations.

I tend to use Doxies.

I only use a Mourner if I’m also giving it the Grave Spirit’s Toucj since I tend to find the only good use I ever get out of them is the crew wide focus T1.

Dandies Jump in again if the scheme pool can be made more difficult for the opponent with models that can blow their schemes up, and don’t go in otherwise.

Sloth has been pretty useful.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Just now, marke83 said:

So if I'm making hasty conclusions, belles seem to suffer from opportunity cost more than from anything else.

No, they suffer from just being super situationally niche. Lure isn’t universally useful, and you need to often actually commit high cards you’d generally rather have for other attack actions to make it work. Their melee attack is only really useful if you have the enemy swarmed, and or if the enemy has h2w or some other negative on their dmg flip.

For cost they really just don’t do enough of anything the game actually cares about. Again, compare beckoners to them for the same role and cost and see what I mean. Yes the issue is opportunity cost, but that’s because generally they are just bad models.

[NoahScape]

On 6/27/2019 at 7:20 PM, Paddywhack said:

I understand your response and know you've been pushing for a while for change. I do agree I think they may have been hit with the 'too good in M2E so nerf em' gun, but that built in ability on their attack is great for a 5SS model. It means most of the time they will be sitting on a +flip for damage which makes their dmg track better than it ought to be. I do wish they had just a little something extra. Their Lure trigger built in would have been thematic for RedChapel and crazy useful without being OP. 

I try not to compare anything to NB who I often find slightly OP. They always give me fits. 

It’s not built in. You have to have two models with scarlet temp within 1 inch to benefit from that, and the ONLY way you get 5 damage is using a ton of AP to hand out distracted and your opponent either made a ton of mistakes or didn’t care enough to assist to remove it. 

Belles have repeatedly been the worst model on the table whenever they’re on the table. 

[Morgan Vening]

3 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

It’s not built in. You have to have two models with scarlet temp within 1 inch to benefit from that, and the ONLY way you get 5 damage is using a ton of AP to hand out distracted and your opponent either made a ton of mistakes or didn’t care enough to assist to remove it. 

Belles have repeatedly been the worst model on the table whenever they’re on the table. 

I'm pretty sure @Paddywhack is referring to the "negative to damage is positive" ability of Unassuming Demeanor is the thing built in. Even without Redchapel, Stat 5 shouldn't be that hard to hit, and heck, ties are even better.

Similarly, Paddy said 5-6 damage, so I'm thinking he meant across a full activation, rather than maximizing Unexpected Ferocity. Could be wrong. Expecting a 5SS model to do 10-12 damage over two actions seems a hard ask.

Add in Scarlet Temptation, and Lure/Pulled + Pounce, and some decent D-tech and 7W, I honestly don't know how much more you would expect for 5SS. Just looks like Dead Doxy is better for 1SS more.

I'm not sold on giving the Belles the Lure suit built in, but I do think giving them a  that made it more likely, wouldn't be that bad.

Some ideas... Either none, or some relatively trivial (Stat 6-7, TN10) target number.
1) Macabre Burlesque - When declaring Triggers, this model may use the suit of the top card in their discard.
2) Mutual Feelings - When declaring triggers, this model may gain Distracted+1 to gain a Mask to their duels.
3) A Little Bit of the Ripper - When declaring Triggers, this model may treat Crows as Masks.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think the best crews in 3E are going to be those that actually all sybergize with each other, which is why I don’t think you can look at what belles are and just buff them and fix it.

For myself I think Belles should get a 0 action that can target a Red Chapel model, with a range that can be debated, that gives that model a ram on all their actions until the end of the turn.

I think Sybelle’s bump in the night should be changed to give Red Chapel models a mask on opposed duels with models within Sybelle’s aura.

Those two changes there would actually make the crew’s model cohesive and a bit better.

[thewrathchilde]

5 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

For myself I think Belles should get a 0 action that can target a Red Chapel model, with a range that can be debated, that gives that model a ram on all their actions until the end of the turn.

Or..... “Good From Far, But Far From Good:  (insert same affect as sniper but for Lure where if she uses focus the Lure is +10”)”

or give them more synergy or ability if they are near Sybelle. Right now though she has some cool tricks the Emissary or other models usually beat her out in my lists. Something like “Sybelle’s Girls: Models attack this model suffer a - flip to their attack if Sybelle has LoS to the attacking model.”