Jack Daw in M3e

[Saduhem]

6 hours ago, bigbopper said:

I would like to add Daw to my resser collection, however I'm worried that he may be a NPE for my opponents. Are my concerns founded or he isn't as bad as he looks? 

The first couple of times you clash against Jack Daw can be very frustrating. You might want to skip those moments by offering some of the following information:
 

• Ruthless/High Wp negates half of the crew's defenses (Terrifying)
• Tormented models have low Mv. Target that stat if you can. Staggering a Tormented model can bring them down to Mv 2.
• Jack and the Hanged hate ping damage. Burning, poison, shockwaves, blasts, vengeance, and damaging auras bypass the incorporeal and Jack's Undying.
• Any card the Tormented player discards is taking health off Jack.
• Don't be afraid of killing the Guilty. 
• Stunned wrecks tormented. Jack Daw and the Hanged rely on triggers and bonus actions to be effective. The Hanged especially goes from being able to threaten models across the board to being a Mv 4 double-walk machine.
• Some Tormented (or Hans) spread out staggered, others capitalize on the staggered. Kill the models that take advantage of it so that applying it is pointless.
• If Jack puts an upgrade on your model, it won't be staggered till next turn. Activating that model early will get rid of the staggered before it can be used against you.
• Bring something the kill Lady Ligeia early. It will be a much smoother experience.

Overall, treat Jack like an Armor + 3 model that has to discard a card to benefit from it. Ping damage, Ruthless, and Stunned are your friends.

[Gloomy]

1 hour ago, Saduhem said:

Burning, poison, shockwaves, blasts, vengeance, and damaging auras bypass the incorporeal and Jack's Undying

Do you mean in the sense that they mostly just do 1 damage? Because there's nothing that bypasses Jack's Undying ability. If he take's 3 from burning he can still discard a card to change the damage to 1

[Saduhem]

4 minutes ago, Wintergloom said:

Do you mean in the sense that they mostly just do 1 damage? Because there's nothing that bypasses Jack's Undying ability. If he take's 3 from burning he can still discard a card to change the damage to 1

They're just 100% effective against Undying and Incorporeal. In other words, those abilities do nothing to mitigate ping damage. Someone trying to kill Jack with a min 3 attack with +2 from critical strike is going to be getting no value from it, while they'd still get maximum value out of vengeance,burning/poison (Unless you plan on stacking 4+), misery, and similar effects.

I hate shockwaves/blasts that do damage and apply conditions when I play Jack. 

[Gloomy]

Just now, Saduhem said:

They're just 100% effective against Undying and Incorporeal. In other words, those abilities do nothing to mitigate ping damage. Someone trying to kill Jack with a min 3 attack with +2 from critical strike is going to be getting no value from it, while they'd still get maximum value out of vengeance,burning/poison (Unless you plan on stacking 4+), misery, and similar effects.

Ah right i get ya. Yeah there's no point in hitting him with high damage attacks

But yes good points made, there's plenty of ways to deal with a Tormented crew. I've had problems against fast crews that can outrun the tormented. Take schemes like Breakthrough and Power Ritual etc as the tormented have a hard time denying those even with the push tricks

 

[Saduhem]

8 hours ago, Wintergloom said:

Ah right i get ya. Yeah there's no point in hitting him with high damage attacks

But yes good points made, there's plenty of ways to deal with a Tormented crew. I've had problems against fast crews that can outrun the tormented. Take schemes like Breakthrough and Power Ritual etc as the tormented have a hard time denying those even with the push tricks

 

Same exact experience. I've had Bultungins run laps around my crew!

Tormented can seem overwhelming, but they have some weaknesses that make up for it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

For NPE (new player experience?), I just start with henchmen + 3 minions games. Much easier learning curve, and less of the cool tricks that seem OP to new players until they understand them.

[hydranixx]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For NPE (new player experience?), I just start with henchmen + 3 minions games. Much easier learning curve, and less of the cool tricks that seem OP to new players until they understand them.

NPE = Negative Play Experience.

As in, models that just make the game unenjoyable for the opponent. 

[Erik1978]

On 7/13/2019 at 4:19 AM, Saduhem said:

Both Daw and the Hanged really, really need heals. Models like the carrion effigy and Gravediggers can save Jack a card for each point they heal, and their presence on the board alone is a huge deterrent as damage inflicted to Jack or the Hanged seems like a bad investment.

Hanged aren't Undead, so they can't be healed by "Stitch Up" which is a real bummer. Guess they didn't hang long enough to become Undead?

 

On 7/24/2019 at 9:25 AM, bigbopper said:

I would like to add Daw to my resser collection, however I'm worried that he may be a NPE for my opponents. Are my concerns founded or he isn't as bad as he looks? 

I don't think he is bad to meet. As with many others: if you have no idea what you are walking into, then perhaps. But when you know how he works, he's not bad. I'd rather meet him than Zoraida for instance.

[Saduhem]

6 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Hanged aren't Undead

Oops!

 

[dannydb]

Yes I do find a nurse or a bone pile not a bad shout in Jack to keep Jack, montresser and guilty alive 

[Saduhem]

53 minutes ago, dannydb said:

Yes I do find a nurse or a bone pile not a bad shout in Jack to keep Jack, montresser and guilty alive 

These three are fortunately undead, so models with Stitch-Up work fine (Not sure why Jack is undead and the Hanged aren’t).

Nurses are a hard sell for me. Seven stones for a once per turn heal and no application for the poison shenanigans out of keyword is just too expensive, especially since she does nothing else for non-experimental crews.

[dannydb]

I'd say there are plenty of other things nurses being. Tools for the job can be realy powerful and an get you the suit you need for the heal as well as removing problematic conditions 

 

Seduction can prevent people stacking up focus and give out a distracted. Yes the trigger isn't something your likely to give out but when it does go off its funny 

 

And the attack isn't bad daze is a realy good trigger if you want control and infect makes the attack psudo min 3

 

All this and more for 7 points.... 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

Nurse brings card draw (kinda), healing and free focus, beside of many situational but still usefull abilities (bedside manners, distracted, daze, condition removal), which makes her a perfect addition to every crew. I don't say she's necessary in every crew, but I don't see how she is not usefull outside Experimental and I can't imagine myself playing Seamus without her.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Gonna have to agree on Nurses. Very good if you have one or two models that are regularly going to want focus. And tools for the Job is a great ability. Especially defensively. On the final action of a models activation you can freely cheat your highest card to either have them miss or mitigate the hit and then activate the nurse and get it back.

I had a game against Raspy where he recycled the red joker 3 or 4 times because of that ability. 

Ill admit I was skeptical about bringing a Nurse out of keyword but she’s worth it. Especially if you think you’re going up against conditions as well. I had her take burning off 4 models in one turn against Mei Feng, so she definitely has her uses.

[Saduhem]

For 1 less, Grave Robbers give out focused to the whole crew turn 1, can move and still heal twice in the same turn, giving extra focused on tomes, are much faster, are free VP on dig their graves, and can score clutch points if  they’re still alive at the end of the game with field of corpses (which can put a lot of pressure on having to take them off the table). 

You're always taking Grave Spirit's Touch, sometimes two, and the Grave Robbers actually let you use Blasphemous ritual. With 2 models having the upgrade, the Grave Robbers can let you use two Blasphemous rituals at the beginning of the game (That's focused +2 across the whole crew). Even if you don't bring GST, you're still getting the +1 focused across your entire crew on your first activation of the game.  If you want focused, this guy blows the nurses out of the water.
 

They can move up to 19 inches per activation on a charge with a mask (against your own models if needed), or 14 if you can’t.

That’s, at least, what works for me.

[Pergli]

2 hours ago, Saduhem said:

For 1 less, Grave Robbers give out focused to the whole crew turn 1, can move and still heal twice in the same turn, giving extra focused on tomes, are much faster, are free VP on dig their graves, and can score clutch points if  they’re still alive at the end of the game with field of corpses (which can put a lot of pressure on having to take them off the table). 

They can move up to 19 inches per round on a charge with a mask (against your own models if needed), or 14 if you can’t.

That’s, at least, what works for me.

I wasn't sold on grave diggers with the crew early on but they've always been clutch when I've taken them. 

[Bobsnextdoor]

Does the nurses Tools for the job ability count as drawing a card for Jack healing? 

[Saduhem]

2 minutes ago, Robin O'brien said:

Does the nurses Tools for the job ability count as drawing a card for Jack healing? 

Injustice only works if the model drawing a card is Tormented!

[Bobsnextdoor]

GAH! I knew there was something missing! 😜 

[DevilCat]

What do people think of slapping your own Guilty with Suppressed Memories once up the board on turns two or three in order to have guaranteed targets for Fickle Tormentor and give your opponents more incentive to waste AP to kill the Guilty already up in their beater's face? It's been pretty reliable for me if I ensure I take the actions with Jack to ensure I've got the Guilty lined up for a charge by second turn, though this is basically just opening or going second with Jack, triple moving and throwing out Drawn to Betrayal to yank my Guilty up.

[Bakunin]

3 hours ago, DevilCat said:

What do people think of slapping your own Guilty with Suppressed Memories once up the board on turns two or three in order to have guaranteed targets for Fickle Tormentor and give your opponents more incentive to waste AP to kill the Guilty already up in their beater's face? It's been pretty reliable for me if I ensure I take the actions with Jack to ensure I've got the Guilty lined up for a charge by second turn, though this is basically just opening or going second with Jack, triple moving and throwing out Drawn to Betrayal to yank my Guilty up.

Seems like a good use of the Guilty's Guilty As Charged. The Staggered condition could be an issue tho

[DevilCat]

15 hours ago, Bakunin said:

Seems like a good use of the Guilty's Guilty As Charged. The Staggered condition could be an issue tho

I find I have the Guilty engaged within turn two unless they actively avoid it. I'm okay with reducing a defense stat so long as they're already engaged.

 

I suppose I'm just concerned as to whether spending the master AP to set up for a brawl is a worth it.

[psychogeek]

On 7/24/2019 at 10:53 AM, Wintergloom said:

Ah right i get ya. Yeah there's no point in hitting him with high damage attacks

But yes good points made, there's plenty of ways to deal with a Tormented crew. I've had problems against fast crews that can outrun the tormented. Take schemes like Breakthrough and Power Ritual etc as the tormented have a hard time denying those even with the push tricks

 

Do not underestimate the hanged ability to teleport around. I shut down power Ritual by using the guilty to slingshot my hanged and had enough ranged to hit the scheme runner wither staggered. My playgroup has a new phrase because I played this crew for the first time and I said “my crew is slow” and found out I can move across the table by turn 2. There is tons of unconventional movement.

[Saduhem]

23 minutes ago, psychogeek said:

Do not underestimate the hanged ability to teleport around. I shut down power Ritual by using the guilty to slingshot my hanged and had enough ranged to hit the scheme runner wither staggered. My playgroup has a new phrase because I played this crew for the first time and I said “my crew is slow” and found out I can move across the table by turn 2. There is tons of unconventional movement.

Yeah Hanged are usually my MVPs because of their mobility. That said, I usually bring as many stones as I can because they eat to move around (That's all their mobility) and  to drop markers. They also cost me 10 because I need Regeneration from GST.

Don't bring them against Nehpilim, they hate black blood.
 

[psychogeek]

Yeah I think I ran 7 ss with the crew and kinda want to stay around that number.

48 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

Yeah Hanged are usually my MVPs because of their mobility. That said, I usually bring as many stones as I can because they eat to move around (That's all their mobility) and  to drop markers. They also cost me 10 because I need Regeneration from GST.

Don't bring them against Nehpilim, they hate black blood.
 

I don’t run them with upgrades though...