I think I just realized something that helps lucius

[4thstringer]

The order of declaring intimidating authority is after the attacking player spends stones, focus, etc.  Therefore, you can wait to see if they will be cancelling out your neg flip and not have to waste the card.  Similarly, your opponent has to decide whether to spend a stone for the plus flip before you declare that defense.  Now, in most of my games I will still ask, because I'm not trying to gotcha them, but still feels powerful.

Do I have this right?

 

[Nikodemus]

3 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

The order of declaring intimidating authority is after the attacking player spends stones, focus, etc.

What are you basing this on? Here's my reading of it (all page numbers are from 3.22.19 beta rulebook):

Page 10 goes over the dueling sequence:

To perform a duel, follow these steps:
A. Modify The Duel [this is where ss use, focus etc. happen]
B. Flip Fate Card
C. Cheat Fate
D. Determine Final Duel Total
E. Declare Triggers
F. Determine Outcome

That's just the dueling part. Looking on page 23 we see how actions are performed:

1. Declare the Action
2. Pay any Costs
3. Targeting [Intimidating Authority is "after... targeted", which I'd argue happens at the end of this step]
4. Perform Duels [far as I can tell, entirety of the dueling sequence, including ss/focus use happen here]
5. Apply Results

Intimidating Authority: After this model is targeted with an Attack Action, it may discard a card to have the Attacking model suffer a - to that Action's duel.

Pages 10 and 23 go into more detail, I posted just the duel/action steps for brevity.

___

I did have to jump back 'n forth in the rulebook a bit more than usual to figure this one out, so I'm fully willing to admit that I may have missed or misunderstood something. But far as I can tell, Intimidating Authority happens before duel modifiers kick in.

[4thstringer]

4 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

What are you basing this on? Here's my reading of it (all page numbers are from 3.22.19 beta rulebook):

Page 10 goes over the dueling sequence:

To perform a duel, follow these steps:
A. Modify The Duel [this is where ss use, focus etc. happen]
B. Flip Fate Card
C. Cheat Fate
D. Determine Final Duel Total
E. Declare Triggers
F. Determine Outcome

That's just the dueling part. Looking on page 23 we see how actions are performed:

1. Declare the Action
2. Pay any Costs
3. Targeting [Intimidating Authority is "after... targeted", which I'd argue happens at the end of this step]
4. Perform Duels [far as I can tell, entirety of the dueling sequence, including ss/focus use happen here]
5. Apply Results

Intimidating Authority: After this model is targeted with an Attack Action, it may discard a card to have the Attacking model suffer a - to that Action's duel.

Pages 10 and 23 go into more detail, I posted just the duel/action steps for brevity.

___

I did have to jump back 'n forth in the rulebook a bit more than usual to figure this one out, so I'm fully willing to admit that I may have missed or misunderstood something. But far as I can tell, Intimidating Authority happens before duel modifiers kick in.

This is part of why I posted it on here, because of my uncertainty.  While it labels the timing as after targeting, it is a modify the duel ability,  which the active player goes first for.  And the modify the duel stage is directly after the targeting so I am assuming  that is what they mean.   But you might be right.  

[trikk]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

This is part of why I posted it on here, because of my uncertainty.  While it labels the timing as after targeting, it is a modify the duel ability,  which the active player goes first for.  And the modify the duel stage is directly after the targeting so I am assuming  that is what they mean.   But you might be right.  

I think I agree with @4thstringer

Intimidating Authority mentions "after being targeted" because I don't think there is a better wording for it to work inbetween "Choose a Target" and "Perform Duel". The Perform Duel step has a special substep "Modify Duel with abilities" which is exactly what Intimidating Authority is.

[Nikodemus]

Sounds reasonable.

[Corn]

I usually play pretty transparently, this seems like a simple matter of communication between players more than anything. 

I do agree that @4thstringer interpretation  is correct, however its not gaming the system or putting people in a gatcha situation by any means.  Its a simple matter of showing people the card, and saying something along the lines of "I can, if I choose, gain this effect by doing X".  Then the opponent can make a decision on what to do (or not do), based on their understanding of what could happen.  Malifaux is a pretty complicated game, especially with a new edition coming out and everyone being a little shaky on the rules and timing.  A new edition is the wild west of people misreading abilities... including their own abilities.  Good communication regarding unit tech can alleviate a lot of that woe.

[4thstringer]

7 minutes ago, Corn said:

I usually play pretty transparently, this seems like a simple matter of communication between players more than anything. 

I do agree that @4thstringer interpretation  is correct, however its not gaming the system or putting people in a gatcha situation by any means.  Its a simple matter of showing people the card, and saying something along the lines of "I can, if I choose, gain this effect by doing X".  Then the opponent can make a decision on what to do (or not do), based on their understanding of what could happen.  Malifaux is a pretty complicated game, especially with a new edition coming out and everyone being a little shaky on the rules and timing.  A new edition is the wild west of people misreading abilities... including their own abilities.  Good communication regarding unit tech can alleviate a lot of that woe.

Oh, that is how I intend to play it.  The good thing for Lucius, the way I see it, it it just gives him another tool in his already pretty strong resource management/resource denial package.

[Gnomezilla]

It just makes intuitive sense that their forcing of a negative flip with a resource happens at roughly the same ‘I’m getting hit and have data about that’ point in decision-making as it does to force a negative flip [to damage] by spending a soulstone.

[Nutella]

I'm leaning toward agreeing with Nikodemus' original argument that the ability would be triggered after step 3 but before step 4 (the duel). I'll add a reference to the Ability Timings section on page 34: "Most Abilities are passive and always in effect, but some occur as a result of another game effect. In these cases, the Ability will use the word “After.” These Abilities happen after the effect in question is resolved."

[trikk]

On 6/17/2019 at 5:46 PM, Nutella said:

I'm leaning toward agreeing with Nikodemus' original argument that the ability would be triggered after step 3 but before step 4 (the duel). I'll add a reference to the Ability Timings section on page 34: "Most Abilities are passive and always in effect, but some occur as a result of another game effect. In these cases, the Ability will use the word “After.” These Abilities happen after the effect in question is resolved."

So how would you word an ability that gives a negative twist during the perform duel step?

[solkan]

40 minutes ago, trikk said:

So how would you word an ability that gives a negative twist during the perform duel step?

Disclaimer:  I'm using "splat" for "when does an effect first come in to play" for lack of a better term because the word Trigger is used for an Action component.   

The issue isn't about it being an ability that applies a negative fate modifier to the duel.

The issue is the "splat" timing--when do you figure out that the negative fate modifier will be applied to the flip.

Quote

Intimidating Authority: After this model is targeted with an Attack Action, it may discard a card to have the Attacking model suffer a  to that Action's duel.

"After this model is targeted with an Attack Action" makes the "splat" happen when the target is declared.  Without that phrase (or if it said something like 'During attacks that target this model', "This model may discard a card to have the Attacking model suffer a to that Action's duel" would happen in the "modify duel" step.

The "Modify the duel" step says:

Quote

If either player has any effects that resolve before performing a duel, they resolve now.

So if the ability said "After this model is targeted with an Attack Action, before the performing the duel it may discard a card to have the Attacking model suffer a to that Action's duel."

And Focused says:

Quote

Focused +X: Before performing an opposed duel, this model may lower the value of this Condition by one to receive a + to the duel (and any resulting damage flip this model makes).

so Focused gets resolved in the Modify the Duel step.

Compare that to Distracted:

Quote

Distracted +X: This model's Actions that target an enemy model suffer a  to their duel. After resolving such an Action, the value of this Condition is lowered by one.

The result of the first sentence of Distracted just gets applied during the "Flip Fate Card" step, without needing to resolve anything else.

 

[Hawkoon]

I think the best way to work with these "before" and "after" wordings is to squeeze them in between the steps defined in the rulebook.

Say we have steps A and B (just examples for clearance). If something says an effect takes place "after" step A, it would squeeze in between step A and B so everything else related to step A resolves first, but before anything related to step B can be resolved. Likewise if something takes place "before" step B, everything related to step A resolves first. Then the effect will be resolved before anything else related to step B.

In the case of intimidating Authority, this suggests that your opponent declares it's target, and then before anything else happens the player with intimidating authority has to choose to discard a card or not to give the . As use of focus is "before" performing a duel, that would (according to my logic) have to be chosen after the model with intimidating authority choose to discard a card or not.

[trikk]

23 minutes ago, Hawkoon said:

I think the best way to work with these "before" and "after" wordings is to squeeze them in between the steps defined in the rulebook.

Say we have steps A and B (just examples for clearance). If something says an effect takes place "after" step A, it would squeeze in between step A and B so everything else related to step A resolves first, but before anything related to step B can be resolved. Likewise if something takes place "before" step B, everything related to step A resolves first. Then the effect will be resolved before anything else related to step B.

In the case of intimidating Authority, this suggests that your opponent declares it's target, and then before anything else happens the player with intimidating authority has to choose to discard a card or not to give the . As use of focus is "before" performing a duel, that would (according to my logic) have to be chosen after the model with intimidating authority choose to discard a card or not.

I would pretty much prefer to have "during" instead of "After" and "before".

So focus would be "During the Perform Duel step, you may XXXX"

[Hawkoon]

6 minutes ago, trikk said:

I would pretty much prefer to have "during" instead of "After" and "before".

So focus would be "During the Perform Duel step, you may XXXX"

Not sure "during" would give the needed definition of the order things should take place in. However I think maybe the rule book should have a more precise wording of "before" and "after" effects. Each step could be subdivided with a start and end phase to put these effects properly into the order of resolving actions. But the detailed timing list would get a lot longer, and it's quite long as it is...

[frumpypigskin]

I think you have to chose and pay the cost "after targeting" which then modifies the flip for the dual, not any terrifying flip etc. 

If it wanted you to choose and pay after then attacker, at the modifying step, it should say "before flipping" and then the cost.

 

My 2c