What master/keyword feels the most 'fair' to play against?

[Maniacal_cackle]

My club has a wide variety of skill levels, and so I want a couple different masters to be able to swap between competitive and casual environments.

The Neverborn seem like an appealing faction generally. Are there any masters people would recommend for playing in a casual environment, especially against new or inexperienced players?

Ideally said master would be relatively easy to understand for an opponent, is easily counter played, and a bit underpowered.

I really like the look of the Dreamer, but worry it looks very powerful (between summoning, lucid dreams, and the models generally).

Suggestions appreciated!

Currently I play Molly/Forgotten, and I feel a bit overpowered. It feels especially unfair against players who haven't played as much as I have, and the crew has loads of abilities that feel 'unfair.' So am looking for the opposite of that!

[Wenshai]

Play Titania.

Shes can be pretty 1dimensional. Her things are generally beaty. You've got one annoying trick that will inhibit most crews if used correctly, but can be avoided by players more experienced in countering her. 

 

She has next to no card draw, and so kindve relies on focussed to do heavy damage, but she'll have enough tricks to be interesting enough for you and not get bored.

[Regelridderen]

Don’t bother. Choose models you like the look and playstyle of - and that makes you want to paint.

Instead play to improve your opponents, discuss their tactics, discuss your own. If you’re setting something up, drop a hint or two, so the guy, who has a hard enough time getting to grips with his own models, has a chance of understanding yours. Losing isn’t annoying for a n00b, it is to be expected after all. What is annoying is the ‘gotcha’ moments, when opponents take advantage of something, that you overlooked. When you forget to scheme and try to kill etc. You’ll want to bring opponents up to your level, not yourself down to theirs.

New players will always be overwhelmed. If you play a beater crew, they’ll feel overpowered and taken by the alphastrike. If your crew is more tricksy, they will envy that and miss the synergy in their own models etc. Instead invest your energy in helping them see their own crews strength rather than your own.

If you want to help your opponent listwise. Simplify your lists; minimize numbers, use duplicates/triplicates of minions, so he has less things to understand and keep track of.

[ezramantis]

I agree with everything Regelridderen said.  I always pad my list out with as many of the same minion as possible when playing new players. That way they have to remember the capabilities of fewer models.

I used von schill and friekorps vs new players in M2E. My neverborn crew relied too much on trickiness.

With friekorps I wouldn't use abilities that broke the basic rules (like being able to charge out of engagement) until the new player had a grasp of those rules. Most of their abilities were pretty utilitarian and straightforward. Things like armor, a decent attack, etc.

Of course when playing a Rasputina player it met with some problems because the old friekorps were imune to blast efffects and it negated one of the things that made Raspy cool. So I now look out for that when choosing a counter crew for teaching. Abilities that negate the coolness of the noob are a no no for me.

I think it's less about the crew and more about the choices to play somewhat suboptimally and instead set up teaching opportunities.

A simple killy crew isn't quite as killy if you don't cheat from your control hand. Heck, a tricky crew is often not as tricky if you let the flip determine whether or not you get your suits. If I found myself too far ahead, I'd sigh at my draw and act like I had shit for a hand, only cheated a few 8s or 9s, and was sure to discard with a low card on top the next round to reinforce my ruse. This also served to weaken my deck if I was discarding high cards.

Also maxing your Soulstone pool and then all but ignoring it is an effective handicap.

Picking difficult schemes for your list will let you play to the max and put you at a disadvatage that's hard to be called out on. (I've played with people who, right from the start get mad if I look like I'm taking it easy on them. They don't catch this one as quick as a pile of untouched soulstones or consistantly under utilized control hand). The added benefit of this is that you can gauge a players understanding post game, when they mention "yeah, assassinate was a hard one for you. There's no way your guys could pin down my master" or something similar.

Those three things helped me not absolutely devastate the only guy I had to play with last year and still let me play who I wanted to (Zoraida) against him (who admitted wasn't strong, but pretty tricksy). They also let me feel challenged and taught me to play better.

Sorry if that turned into a weird, rambling lecture. I just kept remembering all my experiences playing vs mostly new players haha.  But to answer your question:  Von Schill

[Morgan Vening]

25 minutes ago, ezramantis said:

Picking difficult schemes for your list will let you play to the max and put you at a disadvatage that's hard to be called out on.

I really like this one, because it works both ways. You put yourself at a disadvantage for that game, AND you get experience with schemes you might otherwise not take, which might give you a greater insight into accomplishing them easier in a more competitive game in the future.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Thanks for the feedback all

I don't generally like 'going easy' on people, but will take up some of these suggestions (especially the scheme suggestion to challenge myself)!

The general concern was that the learning curve of the game is already quite steep, so I'm looking for ways to smooth it out a bit. I do try to give tips to my opponents (and receive them), but some simple masters to play against should help out.

I'll look into some of these suggestions!

Edit: also love the suggestion to minimise model diversity/use the same minions.

[Adran]

I could probably field any keyword against a new player and put things in the list that feel "unfair" to someone not expecting it. ( In previous editions, I've sometimes done something similar to players when they knew my master and played it themselves and still surprised them with some possibilities). So I would agree with the others that what matters more is your playstyle, rather than the keyword you chose.

I like the suggestion to field multiple of the same model, I often recommend it for learning the game, but don't think of recommending it for your crew when teaching.

 

I've always felt (and don't think the new edition has changed) that the difference between player skill is much more than the difference between crew in terms of power level, so if you are a better player, you are likely to win regardless of the keyword you chose if you play the strongest crew you can build (for you) and try and win. So if you build a dreamer crew, and focus heavily on Lucid dreams then byteh end of the game it will probably feel oppressive for your opponent (because they didn't know at the start they need to pressure you early before the advantage), but a dreamer crew using non lucid dream models would feel very different. (Although if you push it hard, you will still make it seem "overpowered".

All crews are "Overpowered" in their own way, and you skill as a player is to make your form of overpowered be more important than your opponents to win.

[LexLock]

Regardless of how strong crews are, some aren't any fun to play against when you're a beginner (or when you've been playing for years Raspy).

If you started someone in 2e with a Viks blender experience, a Nicodem horde or a Hamelin snoozefest they would come away with a pretty poor opinion of the game unless you were jobbing hard, and that's no fun for anyone.

I think you should avoid Zoraida/Lucius/Dreamer because of summoning and BS. I'd lean towards Titania/Nekima/Euripides because they're pretty in your face (barring Thoon cheese) and just try not to alpha strike them.

[Rob Lo]

We have a new player grow league that's been going about 6 or so weeks at this point. The few experienced players decided to pick 'new to us' masters to keep things somewhat balanced. I ended up with Dreamer. Between so many basically min 3 damage models, summoning in general, summoned models being unburied next to a model that's already getting hit up with WP duels, and the crazy crazy insanity that is Lucid Dreams + Stitched Together removing low cards from your deck and pocketing high cards for Gamble Your Life, Dreamer can be really overwhelming.

[cbtb11235813]

5 hours ago, LexLock said:

I'd lean towards Titania/Nekima/Euripides because they're pretty in your face

I will second Nekima. Yes her crew can beat face, and that might not be the most fun, her crew is very easy to understand. They run forward quickly, little things grow into bigger things, and they punish you for trying to melee them. There isn't much else going on, barring them hurting themselves for black blood. Very easy for a new player to grasp, and learn how to play around (shoot weak things before they can grow, block charge lanes to important things with cheap things, etc)

[bedjy]

Generally what i do against beginners : 

• don't kill their leader (or at least don't rush it).
• choose the worst schemes possible and try to build the best team to score those (build a balanced crew, not a too killy one).
• Don't use nasty out of the hat combos (yes, taking zoraida with thoon and doppleganger is nasty...).
• When your opponent does some bad, gamebreaking choices, let him know.

Then play the best you can, so that you respect your opponent.

Specificaly for Nvb : I would avoid Zoraida, too many obeys on enemy models..

[LexLock]

2 hours ago, bedjy said:

Generally what i do against beginners : 

• don't kill their leader (or at least don't rush it).
• choose the worst schemes possible and try to build the best team to score those (build a balanced crew, not a too killy one).
• Don't use nasty out of the hat combos (yes, taking zoraida with thoon and doppleganger is nasty...).
• When your opponent does some bad, gamebreaking choices, let him know.

Then play the best you can, so that you respect your opponent.

Specificaly for Nvb : I would avoid Zoraida, too many obeys on enemy models..

I think Zoraida this edition is going to cause similar pain to Raspy last edition, it's just not fun being hit by something that you can't hit back, especially when you don't know how to counter it.