Just compared Rusty Alyce to Sam Hopkins.

[4thstringer]

This post is a little bit of salt, but I honestly can't look at their two cards and understand how they are within 2 ss of each other, much less the same cost.  Any insights for me?

[trikk]

4 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

This post is a little bit of salt, but I honestly can't look at their two cards and understand how they are within 2 ss of each other, much less the same cost.  Any insights for me?

I looked at them both and sorry, but I don't get your point.

Alyce is more of a solo model. She doesn't have any synergies but she has a lot of useful abilities. Hopkins has a better melee damage output. Similar ranged damage output and is more mobile and Flaming Bullets makes him synergise with the rest of his crew.

[Ludvig]

I don't think there's a 2ss difference but Alyce seems stronger. Hopkins has a lot lower ranged output, since burning isn't +1 per condition point anymore and if you wanted to apply burning for Sonnia to ignore cover and concealment the ranged attack is horrible since it has a gun and doesn't ignore those defenses. I think I'd rather bring a handler to use the improved witch hunt if burning application and synergy was what I wanted. They share all his keyword abilities and also buff the witchling models so they can get in there and do their job. 

He won't be winning any shootouts with ranged damage dealers around his cost, I'm going to try and use him like an Eldar grav tank from old 40k. Sit behind a wood or house, walk up, rapid fire hoping for some ricochets and then push back out so the enemy can't see you. He might work as an expensive flank hunter while the rest of the crew is focused in the middle. 

I think his new design is interesting considering he spent most of m2e on a shelf. He saw some use after he could get armour and even more extra damage with upgrades and had his points reduced. The changes for m3e was to remove a ton of his damage and up his cost again. 😅 At least he can now move up to get one round of shooting in before getting creamed, his mobility used to be awful. 

 

[GrumpyGrandpa]

5 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

This post is a little bit of salt, but I honestly can't look at their two cards and understand how they are within 2 ss of each other, much less the same cost.  Any insights for me?

I try not to compare Rusty Alyce to anything. She is in a league of her own.

[lusciousmccabe]

45 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

He won't be winning any shootouts with ranged damage dealers around his cost, I'm going to try and use him like an Eldar grav tank from old 40k. 

Only half awake and thought you were talking about proxying. I ROFLed.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

This post is a little bit of salt, but I honestly can't look at their two cards and understand how they are within 2 ss of each other, much less the same cost.  Any insights for me?

You can't just compare cards now, even more so than before because you never have a straight choice between Alyce and Sam. (well you can but it isn't really relevant to much)

Alyce looks a little better in that she has a generally better gun (Sams can do more damage if you get the suits, and the burning damage keeps hitting every turn). Sam has a slightly better melee weapon if you ask me, although the built in injured trigger is good for Alyce,.

Pit trap and healing are overall a better set of options than movement, but creep a long is better than either one, so there isn't all that much in bonus actions.

 

Sam wins in crew based support for me. His Burning condition ties in well with the rest of the witch hunters (well largely Sonnia). Ricchoceht allows him to be setting 2 models on fire each shot, so potentially 6 in a turn (resource heavy). Burning makes Sonnia better and lots of burning makes models pretty bad against Sonnia.

 

Sure, in a vacuum Alyce wins (Not least because fire doesn't burn in a vacuum ) but I see Sam being picked at his cost for what he does. Maybe he won't be hired out of keyword, and maybe Alyce will. But that's not intrinsictly a problem the game needs to deal with.

[trikk]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

I don't think there's a 2ss difference but Alyce seems stronger. Hopkins has a lot lower ranged output, since burning isn't +1 per condition point anymore and if you wanted to apply burning for Sonnia to ignore cover and concealment the ranged attack is horrible since it has a gun and doesn't ignore those defenses. I think I'd rather bring a handler to use the improved witch hunt if burning application and synergy was what I wanted. They share all his keyword abilities and also buff the witchling models so they can get in there and do their job. 

He won't be winning any shootouts with ranged damage dealers around his cost, I'm going to try and use him like an Eldar grav tank from old 40k. Sit behind a wood or house, walk up, rapid fire hoping for some ricochets and then push back out so the enemy can't see you. He might work as an expensive flank hunter while the rest of the crew is focused in the middle. 

I think his new design is interesting considering he spent most of m2e on a shelf. He saw some use after he could get armour and even more extra damage with upgrades and had his points reduced. The changes for m3e was to remove a ton of his damage and up his cost again. 😅 At least he can now move up to get one round of shooting in before getting creamed, his mobility used to be awful. 

 

While concealment might be an issue, Cover isn't really that big of a deal with a stat 6 attack. And Alyce has the same issue. Also with Sonnia you will be taking a LOT of favorable trades against ranged models

[Ludvig]

44 minutes ago, trikk said:

While concealment might be an issue, Cover isn't really that big of a deal with a stat 6 attack. And Alyce has the same issue. Also with Sonnia you will be taking a LOT of favorable trades against ranged models

I was mostly arguing that he might not be that good at applying burning to models for Sonnia to ignore concealment, handlers seem better at that. 

If Sonnia keeps access to the auto armour ignoring upgrade she is going to be fun. Hoff's happy bunch all have Armour +2 and Hoffmeister can bring his own concealment bubble with a bunch of trigger happy constructs. He might become really popular this edition if gunlines end up as powerful as they look right now. Then again a stealth list will royally screw you over if you went too hard on shooting. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out and I think Sam is in a better spot right now than he was pre errata m2e. 

@Adran Hold up... Burning just ticks a single point now? That certainly changes my assessment of witch hunter burning synergies. Pop a few points of burning on Alyce and she isn't in range to shoot back?  Edit: omfg, it doesn't even tick down! Adding burning to attacks sounds a lot better to me now. Sonnia is going to be a nightmare to face. 

 

[Nikodemus]

15 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Hold up... Burning just ticks a single point now?

It doesn't tick down but also deals less damage than in 2e. 1 for 1 and 1 for every 3 afterwards.

So 1 burn = 1 damage. 4 burn = 2 damage. 7 burn = 3 damage.

[Ludvig]

16 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

It doesn't tick down but also deals less damage than in 2e. 1 for 1 and 1 for every 3 afterwards.

So 1 burn = 1 damage. 4 burn = 2 damage. 7 burn = 3 damage.

Since Sonnia seems mostly concerned with fucking over all your ranges that is a massive damn change in utility. Doing damage is pretty much all the witch hunters thing already. 

[Adran]

12 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

It doesn't tick down but also deals less damage than in 2e. 1 for 1 and 1 for every 3 afterwards.

So 1 burn = 1 damage. 4 burn = 2 damage. 7 burn = 3 damage.

Yes, except that 1 point of burning on turn one could do 5 points of damage over the game. (its also a little easier to add burning this edition I think). There is also more to do with large stacks of burning this time, so its hard to make a straight forward comparison. 

[trikk]

55 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Since Sonnia seems mostly concerned with fucking over all your ranges that is a massive damn change in utility. Doing damage is pretty much all the witch hunters thing already. 

It doesn't tick down at all so you have to spend AP to Assist/Dispel Magic. I played a test game with Sonnia vs Lilith and I managed to get Lilith to Burning +11 pretty easily.

[4thstringer]

Burning is also very easy to remove now.  

[4thstringer]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

You can't just compare cards now, even more so than before because you never have a straight choice between Alyce and Sam. (well you can but it isn't really relevant to much)

 

Wait, you can?  What crew is that?

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Burning is also very easy to remove now.  

Is it easier to remove than it used to be? Or is it just that almost no-one bothered to remove it before. There are some crews that use self burning to power up their actions, but outside of those, the M3 assist action is fairly similar to the old interact rules that were very rarely used. That might be just because it wasn't worth the AP to prevent 1 damage, and the condition was going to go away at the end of turn anyway.

 

Just now, 4thstringer said:

Wait, you can?  What crew is that?

I meant you can compare cards.

The nearest I can get to comparing them as a direct choice is a Crossroads 7 crew that you choose either Pride or Greed to lead, to be able to hire one or the other. Then you have the whole upgrade package, effigy extra AP and other model choices to compare that can make the crews differ.

[4thstringer]

Just now, Adran said:

Is it easier to remove than it used to be? Or is it just that almost no-one bothered to remove it before. There are some crews that use self burning to power up their actions, but outside of those, the M3 assist action is fairly similar to the old interact rules that were very rarely used. That might be just because it wasn't worth the AP to prevent 1 damage, and the condition was going to go away at the end of turn anyway.

  

And you don't just remove one now, you reduce by a cheatable 1/2/3.  I don't remember if you could be within 2" too, but the interact rules also aren't there to stop you now.  

[Adran]

19 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

And you don't just remove one now, you reduce by a cheatable 1/2/3.  I don't remember if you could be within 2" too, but the interact rules also aren't there to stop you now.  

It used to be any model within 2" including yourself could take the interact action to lower burning by 1. (or rather you can take an interact action to reduce the burning of a friendly model with in 2" by 1) so the advantage of beign able to do it in combat now counters the ability to do it to your self that it lost.

The advantage of the 1/2/3 flip is if models gain bonus' when you're on fire, but largely, assist will prevent 1 damage per turn, rather than 1 damage total. But that's because burning damages every turn rather than just once.

 

 

[4thstringer]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

It used to be any model within 2" including yourself could take the interact action to lower burning by 1. (or rather you can take an interact action to reduce the burning of a friendly model with in 2" by 1) so the advantage of beign able to do it in combat now counters the ability to do it to your self that it lost.

The advantage of the 1/2/3 flip is if models gain bonus' when you're on fire, but largely, assist will prevent 1 damage per turn, rather than 1 damage total. But that's because burning damages every turn rather than just once.

  

 

Does sonnia's reducing range effect the assist?  I don't remember offhand, and don't have the rules easily available.

 

[Adran]

Just now, 4thstringer said:

Does sonnia's reducing range effect the assist?  I don't remember offhand, and don't have the rules easily available.

 

I would say no. The 2" is part of the effect not the range of the action.

[4thstringer]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

I would say no. The 2" is part of the effect not the range of the action.

Shame, that would be a cool interaction.  

[Cursed25]

there already was a post about this and it will need a FAQ for sure! I personnaly think the 2'' is the rang eof the action so Sonnia's make it harder for opponent to assist their friend! Fire is hot  you need to stay away from it!  

[4thstringer]

3 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

there already was a post about this and it will need a FAQ for sure! I personnaly think the 2'' is the rang eof the action so Sonnia's make it harder for opponent to assist their friend! Fire is hot  you need to stay away from it!  

Range is a defined term in m3e, as a way to define actions on the card.  Otherwise I would agree with you.

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

there already was a post about this and it will need a FAQ for sure! I personnaly think the 2'' is the rang eof the action so Sonnia's make it harder for opponent to assist their friend! Fire is hot  you need to stay away from it!  

Personally I'm hoping the general actions get written in the rule book in the correct action form, so we don't need a faq. As currently written it is not a range ( it's not in the range section of the action), it's part of the text to resolve the action. But let's wait and see what the final rules look like. 

[ShinChan]

Well Samael has a nice damage output too. You could easily creep along to get into charge distance (and even avoid concealment and cover), with unimpeded, which is really good this edition. Shoot twice thanks to rapid fire (if you're lucky or want to spend some SS you'll get Ricochet and +4 burning, +2 on each model) and end up charging, which would give you a  to the attack.

So, in a single activation:

• Moved 12", ignoring terrain.
• Shooting twice for a minimum of 4 damage +2 burning
• Melee attack withing 1", with a  to the attack.

And with counterspell, shielded, access to armor and the ability to use SS, he is can handle an activation of a non-beater.

Not saying that he is a beast, and Alyce is definitely a better pure shooter, but now with Mv 6, unimpeded and a free push, he becomes more interesting.