Our Powers Combined and Oxfordian Mages

[ExperimentAlpha]

Carrying over the discussion from This Thread.

Let's say that Sandeep has summoned one Ice Gamin, which is within aura 4 of two other ice gamin. Of course, it gains the "Shackled Elements" upgrade, giving it slow.

On his next activation, he uses the Oxfordian Mage's tactical action, Arcane Conduit, which, until end phase, allows any friendly model that activates within range to end a condition affecting it.

Next, the player activates the Ice Gamin, and uses "Our Powers Combined" from the Shackled Elements upgrade to fusion the three ice gamin into an ice golem.

Does "Arcane Conduit" resolve before generating AP? Does the ice golem have 1 or 2 AP? Does the ice golem have the "Slow" condition?

[mythicFOX]

Both abilities happen at the start of the model's activation, so you can resolve them in an order of your choice.  So you combine into a Golem (gaining slow in the process) the question is then;  can you remove slow with Arcane Conduit as the Golem is continuing the Gamin's activation and is not starting it's own?

My answer is; yes you can, because step 4 of the replacement will transfer the Arcane Conduit effect to the Golem which will resolve after the With Out Powers Combined completes.

Relevant rules;

• With Our Powers Combined:  At the start of this model's Activation, if it is within 4 of at least two other models with the same name, it may Replace itself and two such models in range with an Elemental Enforcer model with the same Demise Ability as all three Replaced models.
• Arcane Conduit:  Until the End Phase, after a friendly model Activates within range, that model may end a Condition affecting it.
• Replace, P32, step 4:  If the new and original models belong to the same Crew, the new model becomes the target of any effects that targeted or chose the original model, such as Schemes, Leader designation, or lasting game effects. The new model is always considered a legal target for those effects.

 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, dannydb said:

The point to make though is the golem never has a start of activation first time round.

The gamin activates and you combine it.

 

The golem then carries on the activation having started an activation

The wording is:  "If the original model was Replaced during its Activation, the new model continues the Activation using any remaining Actions."

At what step was the original model?  Resolving its 'start of activation effects'.  So where do you "continue the Activation" from?  That same point, so you finish the 'start of activation' step by resolving what's ever left over.

You seem to be making some sort of strange leap from "continue the Activation" to I don't know what.  

[Adran]

There are a few points that make this complex.

Firstly are they at the same time? By my powers combined is at the start of activation. Arcane conduit is after a model activates. These were different times  in previous editions. I'm not sure now. This is its biggest sticking point for me.

Secondly Do you "Stack" all the effects that are going to happen and then work through them one by one, or do you do an effect, and then see if you are able to do any more. (This matters in this one as if the original gamin didn't have a condition to remove, could you put a condition removal ability on the "stack" in preparation for it to be useful later). This probably won't make a big difference in most games, as you are likely to want to  activate the already slow gamin to be replaced, so it will have a condition to remove. The Replace a model with burning debate that happened in the beta did suggest that the Burning would process on the new model (Which is kind of the opposite of what we're saying here).

Thirdly, whilst the Golem is not the same model as the gamin, it is subject to lasting effects on the gamin,. It shares the activation of the gamin. The replace rules say that it carries on the activation using any remaining actions. I think its correct that it should carry on the activation at the point it was at when it replaced, but that's not quite what is said.

 

By the rules as written at the moment I think that you probably can get rid of the Golems slow, but it doesn't feel right to me, and it doesn't take much rewording to make it not work.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, ExperimentAlpha said:

Carrying over the discussion from This Thread.

Let's say that Sandeep has summoned one Ice Gamin, which is within aura 4 of two other ice gamin. Of course, it gains the "Shackled Elements" upgrade, giving it slow.

On his next activation, he uses the Oxfordian Mage's tactical action, Arcane Conduit, which, until end phase, allows any friendly model that activates within range to end a condition affecting it.

Presumably you mean at this point to cancel Slow on the Ice Gamin.

2 hours ago, ExperimentAlpha said:

Next, the player activates the Ice Gamin, and uses "Our Powers Combined" from the Shackled Elements upgrade to fusion the three ice gamin into an ice golem.

 

2 hours ago, ExperimentAlpha said:

Does "Arcane Conduit" resolve before generating AP? Does the ice golem have 1 or 2 AP? Does the ice golem have the "Slow" condition?

In no particular order:

• There's no longer a such thing as "action points" in M3E.  The model has no AP because that isn't a thing any more.
• In M3E, gaining Fast or Slow during a model's activation actually matters to the current activation, instead of mattering next turn.
• As specified in Step 3 of Replace, the summoning upgrade gets attached to the Ice Golem and doing so causes the Ice Golem to gain Slow.

The summoning upgrade having an effect on the replacing model feels like it might be an unintended consequence, but it's the sort of unintended consequence that would require a FAQ or errata to avoid.

Of course, there's a phrasing issue with the effects.  Arcane Conduit specifies "after a friendly model Activates within range".  "Our Powers Combined" specifies "At the start of this model's Activation".  If those are both supposed to be resolved in the "Start activation" effects step, then you can resolve the replace effect first and then resolve Arcane Conduit to remove the Slow condition.

 

[dannydb]

The point to make though is the golem never has a start of activation first time round.

The gamin activates and you combine it.

 

The golem then carries on the activation having started an activation

[DumbLuck]

But the golem/gamin is the same model, if the golem doesn't have a start activation phase it would never activate and would get no actions.  It's just carrying over the gamins Start of Activation phase and there are still items queued in the Start of Activation timing that need resolved before you can move to the next step.

[solkan]

11 hours ago, Adran said:

The Replace a model with burning debate that happened in the beta did suggest that the Burning would process on the new model (Which is kind of the opposite of what we're saying here).

Slightly an aside, but there’s a reasonable expectation of a rule change between beta and release to deal with this scenario.  I don’t know the details, but my understanding is that there’s going to be text put in to stop the “double burning on replacing”.

 

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

Did the text change?

[solkan]

3 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

Did the text change?

The text (any of the text referenced in this discussion) did not change.  🤔