Consolidated Lucius Thoughts

[Gaston]

I got started with Lucius in the beta, because no one was playing him! I thought I would share what I had learned thus far, and hope it is a helpful launching point for other’s brainstorms, games, and ideas. I’ve tried to keep this updated through the closed then open Beta, but apologies if I missed something or something changed.

Why play Elite? 

The card draw is really fantastic, they have an enormous amount of flexibility, and there is nothing else in Neverborn than can come close to their ability to drop, deny, and otherwise manipulate scheme markers. 

The Elite keyworded models are:

Lucius Mattheson
The Scribe
Agent 46*
Alan Reid*
Investigator*
Guild Lawyer*
False Witness*
Doppleganger
Changeling

The models with a * are all Guild models. I think one of the unfortunate limitations of the dual faction masters within the keyword system (Lucius, Marcus) is that it does increase the barrier of entry to them because there isn’t really much overlap with other masters within the faction (in this case Neverborn). Nevertheless, I strongly encourage checking them out and playing the faction as a whole.

One of the main defensive abilities of the crew worth highlighting is the ability to put your opponent on negative flips when attacking. Lucius has Serene Countenance, other models have Intimidating Authority or Manipulative, there is also Fade Away and Stealth. As there is no really unified defensive ability, you have to plan activation order around how you want to leverage these. For example, you want Manipulative models to go as late in the turn as possible. 

Following Orders: One of a couple of card draw abilities available to the keyword. It is pretty strong, but comes with a couple of limitations (once per activation, command must come from a higher costing model). Card draw is a common element within this keyword, as Lucius himself allows you to draw a card anytime anyone spends a pass token, Investigators can draw cards off of markers, Nefarious Pact, and so on. This helps a lot to offset the card discard mechanics, like Intimidating Authority.

Intimidating Authority: Sprinkled across a few of the models, this ability ties well with the increased hand size and card draw of the crew, allowing you to put enemy models on negative flips at will. Models with this are:

• Alan Reid
• Investigator
• Lawyer

Lucius: This is a guy whole rolls with OPTIONS. All day, every day. If he walks, everyone else moves. He brings his own sniper, and can draw range and LOS off of ANY Elite model. This is perfect for picking on flanking scheme runners, and Injured is a very strong debuff. Interestingly, he can draw the range and LOS of engaged Elite models, but due to the projectile icon cannot use the ability if he is engaged himself.

His number one, most popular action is Issue Command. Typically I try to spam this as much as possible, and if you do so on an Elite model, then you draw a card to boot. The push requires a bit of set up as it is directly away, but it is always good to have a threat exender. What this ability also does is dictate crew hiring. A large amount of the high value Neverborn beater models are not Minions, and cannot be commanded. This pushes him a bit off the beaten path of Hooded Rider or Hinamatsu, and more toward Savages or Nephilim. 

Misinformation is also particularly strong. You get to see your opponent’s hand. You get to throw away two of their face cards. Straightforward. Easy. Profit.

One thing of note is that Lucius can often make his way up to the middle-field. Serene Countenance makes him a bit of a pain to take down, and he wants to be able to leverage Entourage and Subterfuge from that position, not to mention Misinformation is only Range 6. This makes him susceptible to Deliver a Message, so be careful if it is in the pool. Also be aware of models with positive flips to attack, or who can apply Adversary.

Lucius can be pretty interesting as a second pick for Savages or Chimera. Both crews have a lot of high value minions that he can command and both benefit from +1 hand size. 

The Scribe: A pretty odd totem. The Scribe is best used aggressively, either as a Hidden Sniper beacon, apply the Betrayal aura, or to physically block off enemy models. The moment they attack him, discard, bury, and then pop up next turn where you can effect the most friendly models with Unseen Butler. All his abilities are pretty nice, pulling friendly models back or ending conditions are always handy.

Agent 46: Agent 46 is amazing and always getting the job done. You have to put the model on the table to really appreciate how efficient Inhuman Physiology makes this model. Analyze Weakness is a very helpful buff, particularly in Neverborn, which doesn’t have a lot of abilities to ignore armor. 

He is great in melee, but Mimic really opens up some options. Consider you can Mimic the sniper rifle off of Angel Eyes, then when you shoot an enemy, they cannot cheat fate. On top of that, the rifle shot can be done with Issue Command both from Lucius and the Changelings. Ruthless is noteworthy too, especially against crews that stack a lot of terrifying (i.e. Lynch), as there is not much other access to Ruthless within Neverborn. Hooded Rider and The Carver are the only other ones with this ability.

When using him, be a bit aware, as for a 9ss model, he is a bit soft. Stealth is great, and his stats are decent, but other than the normal Henchman soulstone abilities, he has nothing else to help keep him alive, and he can go down surprisingly quickly to dedicated attacks.

Alan Reid: In a crew full of complex models, Alan Reid is probably the hardest model in the crew to get work out of, and takes a lot of set up. On the basics, he has a Garrote just like an Investigator, with a fun trigger to force Schemes to be revealed. He also has a side arm for putting out some damage at range. To use him as a beater, use Startle as a free action to apply Staggered, then charge in for min damage 3.

But you can get much deeper using him, by leveraging “One More Question”. Obviously ranged Slow on a stick is quite strong. But it is really the engaged clause and Coordinated Attack trigger that make him dirty. It requires comboing together him, a False Witness, and an Insidious Madness. At that point the Witness uses Distraction to give the enemy negative flips on Wp duels, then he does One More Question while the Madness engages. Your opponent is at a negative and cannot cheat, and with the Coordinated Attack trigger you are putting down 1/3/4 followed by a 2/3/4 attack, also defended with a negative flip. If you get the right suits or use soulstones, that is a minimum of 3 damage, but usually with the negative flips you can get much higher. It takes a LOT, but can be VERY effective and can burn a model down surprisingly quickly. Also if they go to attack the Insidious back and are in the Distraction bubble, then they are a negative flip against the Terrifying check. If you are not comfortable with the Madness, you can do the same with a Mature Nephilim or Hooded Rider, where they use Ride/Fly With Me to deposit the False Witness in the optimum position, also their minimum damage is higher (but they attack Wp not Df).

Finally, he can be used as a psuedo-tank with Boring Conversation. This puts up a Wp 10 test for all actions within 6”. In and of itself, 10 is not a high target number, but the Injured condition reduces the Wp stat. Once you drop Wp a couple of points, performing any action near him becomes quite challenging (not to mention Distraction aura from the False Witness). Couple this with his Slow attack and an aura of bonus action denial, and he can stop models cold. Additionally, you can stack this with Terrifying, so now attacks require two TN tests before they can be made. And all of this is stacked on the other defensive abilities of the crew, such as Intimidating Authority. 

Some models that easily apply ranged Injured:

• Lucius - Hidden Sniper
• Aeslin - Decay

Investigator: These guys are all sorts of useful! They have card draw, then can push models with placed markers (see False Claim). The stop enemies from scoring scheme markers. A hidden trick with them is they actually have a pretty solid damage profile with the Garrote. The Stagger trigger is built in, but needs to damage to apply Stagger. Then, if the target is Staggered they are actually min damage 3 for 7 ss. This makes models that put Stagger out at range more noteworthy (also because Stagger is better when you are not already in melee):

• Mysterious Emissary - Spread it Around
• Tuco - Custom Shotgun
• Vasilisa - Tangled Threads
• Thoon - Hooked Chain
• Cyclops - Frozen Runes
• Sorrow - Startle

This list isn’t necessarily to recommend these models with an Elite crew specifically, more to highlight non-melee Stagger options.

Guild Lawyer: Obey on a Minion! It requires a 9 Masks to go off, but you can use Tools for the Job to get the needed suit and cycle cards a little. Their other dirty trick is Impassioned Defense to put Shielded +2 on two different models. This couples really well with Incorporeal models or anything with damage reduction, as at that point you can effectively ignore attacks that do 2 damage or less (until Shielded runs out). Hinamatsu with Armor +2 and Shielded +2 is pretty legit (downside: not a Minion). Works great on Insidious Madness too.

False Witness: They are your scheme runners. False Claim is incredibly useful for scoring, as well as all the scheme marker interactions they have with the Investigators. Being able to drop markers at a distance and even while engaged is very strong. It can be very helpful to drop a bunch of scheme markers on Turn 1 in your deployment zone, then remove those with False Claim later on in the game. Paired with an Investigator, these early game scheme markers can serve double/triple duty, pushing your models up the table quicker and adding to card draw. Another big draw for False Witnesses is the Distraction aura, which is devastating when leveraging Wp duels, which the crew does a lot of, or Terrifying duels.

Doppleganger: Lure is always strong for isolating an individual model, but she brings a Stat 7 Mimic. Get creative!

Changeling: These are Lucius’s unofficial totems. They are cheap and can copy Issue Command off of him using Just Like You. In addition to all the other Elite/Minion models to command, you can also Command Lucius himself as he is Elite in order to make him walk (and trigger Escort) or take another shot with Hidden Sniper. They also work well in a pinch as a scheme runner, Stealth, Disguised, and Manipulative is a very strong suite of defensive tech.

Non-Elite Models

Angel Eyes: Sniper to Mimic with Doppleganger or Agent 46. Straightforward.

Mature Nephilim: It is a very fast, very aggressive minion (and can therefore be commanded). Ride with Me is a great ability for placing Lucius up front even faster, or for precisely dropping off a False Witness. The Heavy Claws just have a great damage track too for Issue Command or Mimic. It did lose quite a bit of defensive tech, so be careful that it doesn’t get focused down quickly.

Geryon: Minion melee beater. Hard to Wound and Extended Reach are awesome, but he does basically lose all of the Ice Pillar tricks off of his card.

Cyclops: Pretty out there pick, but hear me out. They are relatively cheap (7+1) for a model with 2” reach and min damage 3. Their health is above average for their cost, and they have Frozen Vigor for even more durability. They can also drop out ice pillars, and are Minions, so can be commanded. The ice pillars are useful for holding enemies back if you are running a gunline with Agent 46/Angel Eyes (who also ignore cover from the sniper rifle). Additionally, the Cyclops can pulse out an irresistible Staggered onto enemy models to slow them even further, which synergizes with the Garrote from Alan Reid and Investigators.

Insidious Madness: Incorporeal, Terrifying, attacks Wp in a crew with access to False Witnesses. They are also easy to deliver if summoned by the Dreamer due to the From Nightmares ability on the Waking Dream upgrade.

Aversion: Another incorporeal model to benefit from shielded. Antipathy stacks nicely with Boring Conversation or Distraction (and triggers before a charge attack is made). It also brings a lot of placement tricks with Scatter, Terrorize, and Frightening Reminder. Great for clearing out the center in Claim Jump.

Dreamer: At cost 13 (12+1) he is cheaper to hire than 2 Insidious Madnesses (7+1 = 8, 16ss), so you save 3 ss. Also the summoning upgrade lets you place them near models that fail Wp duels, which are common in this crew in certain builds. 

Serena Bowman: She is difficult to drop with Eternal (and benefits from the extra hand size and card draw) and brings a lot of healing to a crew that really doesn’t have much healing. She is another model that should make it into a wide variety of Neverborn crews. Also if you are running the Dreamer, she is a Nightmare and can make another minion a Nightmare to even better synergize with the second master.

Iggy: He is your anti-schemer and should be in consideration (even with tax) for every crew. He gets 3 AP with Reckless, and Arson in the right scheme pool means that he can nearly single handedly shut down an opponent. Additionally, he is a 6 ss model with a min damage of 4 (2 + burning + Misery). This crew has enough anti-scheming to make him a bit redundant, but he should always be worth considering.

Rougarou: The mighty Rougarou is another beater Minion that can benefit a lot from being in a Lucius list. Flay on the claws is particularly useful into Resurrectionists, as they often have lower defense, but hard to wound as defensive tech. Using this trigger to cheat in damage can be fairly card intensive on the hand, so the Rougarou benefit from all the card draw available to the Elite crew. Additionally they bring some undergrowth markers, which can be used at choke points to provide concealment to your crew on the approach. Just be careful with placement, as much of the Elite crew does not have unimpeded or any way to handle terrain gracefully. Deadly Pursuit is also very useful for surprise scoring (or denying) of certain schemes, as the move happens before the VPs are counted. Even at Cost 9, Rougarou are a strong candidate for Butterfly Jump. Like all undead models they are good at keeping opponents to min damage, but if you are getting hit by a min 3 beater, low defense means that you will be eating that damage often, and a quick jump back could be the difference between life and death.

Vasilisa/Wicked Dolls: Vasilisa is fairly universally useful due to her Move Along ability, as well as general tankiness (good stats and Armor +2). When paired with Wicked Dolls, they automatically hand out Staggered, easily powering up the Investigators. Furthermore, Wicked Dolls are really cheap at 3 ss, significant, and have a really solid defensive tech in Stealth. Creep Along also helps them to get to the centerline Turn 1 with 1 AP left over for certain schemes and strategies.

Upgrades 

Upgrades aren’t amazingly needed on Elite models, I would say take them as you want them on a model by model basis, but the crew works just fine if you want to just reinvest the stones into more models or a bigger cache.

Inhuman Reflexes: Butterfly Jump is VERY strong in general, as you can jump out of combat or into cover against ranged. Lucius also tends to want melee Minion beatsticks in order to Issue Command to them, so you get the maximum benefit from the upgrade. The bigger limiting factor though is that these are often out of keyword, forcing you to pay for both the upgrade and the tax. 

Ancient Pact: Card draw is always good, and with 2 copies of this you get a +2 to initiative flips. With Alan Reid you get 3 Nefarious Pacts to add even more card draw/cycling to your crew. 

Eldritch Magic: A difficult upgrade to find specific purpose for, I think it will mostly be a counterpick against specific masters/crews once the meta settles and we get more experience.

Gameplay

Lucius can be built in a wide variety of ways. You can do a more aggressive focused crew with Agent 46, Doppleganger, and models for them to mimic such as Mature Nephilim or Angel Eyes. You can do a scheme oriented crew with Witnesses and Investigators, or you can do the One More Question trick with Dreamer, Reid, and Witnesses. This is a crew that really rewards model exploration, and being willing to take the risk to go out of theme and start hiring in a model or two at +1 ss tax.

I hope this is a good starting point and people are able to enjoy Lucius as much as I have!
 

[Gaston]

Reserved

[Angelshard]

Great write up, well written and thought through, much appreciated. 

For recommendations I would add rogarou with Inhuman reflexes. Ordering it to charge through enemies several times in a turn is brutal, plus you can be fairly certain you can cheat the damage thanks to triggers. 

I'd also add vasilisa and wicked dolls if you're going for garotte. Being able to give automatic staggered is great snt the combo is really good at scheming too. 

[Wenshai]

I've been toying with the idea of Collodi into a Lucy crew, can summon his marionettes in, and Changelings can prompt his Puppetmaster, giving Collodi more actions. I dont really kbow how effective this can be though. Need to try it myself.

[Gaston]

1 hour ago, Wenshai said:

I've been toying with the idea of Collodi into a Lucy crew, can summon his marionettes in, and Changelings can prompt his Puppetmaster, giving Collodi more actions. I dont really kbow how effective this can be though. Need to try it myself.

Why not just take the Changelings in with Collodi as the master?

[Morgan Vening]

18 minutes ago, Gaston said:

Why not just take the Changelings in with Collodi as the master?

Cost?

Collodi is 15+1 to hire into Lucius.

3x Changelings are 12+3 to hire into Collodi.

It's pretty much a wash, unless you're not wanting to be a Puppet crew, and want to maximize the Lucius shenanigans, meaning other Elite models.

I think @Wenshai is factoring in Collodi brings what he needs to work.

[Gaston]

51 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Cost?

Collodi is 15+1 to hire into Lucius.

3x Changelings are 12+3 to hire into Collodi.

It's pretty much a wash, unless you're not wanting to be a Puppet crew, and want to maximize the Lucius shenanigans, meaning other Elite models.

I think @Wenshai is factoring in Collodi brings what he needs to work.

I was thinking more along the lines of it being nice to have one to two Changelings, rather than investing in 3. 

If we starting talking that level of points investment, then Zoraida enters into the discussion as well. Her Obey is roughly 6 AP for the price of 3, provided you are able to hit all the triggers for either Fast or take two actions.

I will totally grant though that needing 3 7's is a much higher bar than the Changelings getting to take the action for effectively no TN---there totally is a trade off. (And the positive twist should not be overlooked either)

[Wenshai]

Well, the Changelings targettimg Collodi with his own puppetmaster action wont give him a +. 

 

Where the thought came from, is that I believe his attack is still really strong. That 1ap prompt along with damage seems good, and the chabgelongs and lucius effectively give collodi 9ap a turn...seems good...but might be too cute.

[f1amius]

I think u can include Candy, she is pretty good works with Ellite crew. 

She can give u heal, fast, control, damage.

And if u give her shielded she become good tank in ur crew. 

[Ezuma]

I'm curious how Stitched do with Lucius. If you take Dreamer they would seem a pretty good summon, but would they be worth hiring in in anyone's experience?

[extremor]

First of all, thank you for all your thoughts on Lucius. This thread really helped me out since I struggled quite hard to get my Lucius crew running. It took me about 10 games to gather enough experience with him, to try out all the options of the keyword and some of the other possibilities. I'm far from being a good Lucius player but constantly learning.

 

I was wondering:

1. what would you errata on our keyword?

2. Do you think there will be one or two other MIMIC models in the pipe to support the neverborn part of Lucius?

3. What's you fav. playstyle/list with Lucius?

 

atm mine is: 

Lucius, Scribe, Mature Nephilim + ancient pact, Agent 46, Serena Bowman, Lawyer + ancient pact, False witness, changeling

[Maniacal_cackle]

16 minutes ago, extremor said:

First of all, thank you for all your thoughts on Lucius. This thread really helped me out since I struggled quite hard to get my Lucius crew running. It took me about 10 games to gather enough experience with him, to try out all the options of the keyword and some of the other possibilities. I'm far from being a good Lucius player but constantly learning.

 

I was wondering:

1. what would you errata on our keyword?

2. Do you think there will be one or two other MIMIC models in the pipe to support the neverborn part of Lucius?

3. What's you fav. playstyle/list with Lucius?

 

atm mine is: 

Lucius, Scribe, Mature Nephilim + ancient pact, Agent 46, Serena Bowman, Lawyer + ancient pact, False witness, changeling

I don't play Lucius yet, but here's some thoughts!

1. I think it is a bit early for errata generally, but especially Lucius people haven't had a chance to play yet. Also fills such a unique role in Neverborn, and also is available to Guild, so errata is extra tricky for the crew. Do they seem under or overpowered to you so far?

2. I wouldn't count on it, but wouldnt be surprised if Explorer's society is used to fill out some keywords. No basis for this claim.

3. Your list seems neat! Why mature neph seems fab to me in this list. The models in general seem nuts. But is guild lawyer worth it? I don't understand the model. Obey is sweet on Zoraida. But lower stat, difficulty in getting masks, and general obey clunkiness makes me wonder.

[Regelridderen]

26 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

3. Your list seems neat! Why mature neph seems fab to me in this list. The models in general seem nuts. But is guild lawyer worth it? I don't understand the model. Obey is sweet on Zoraida. But lower stat, difficulty in getting masks, and general obey clunkiness makes me wonder.

Remember that the Lawyer is able to recycle cards for suits – nothing is more annoying, than to see an opponent activate a lawyer and reclaim a red joker.

Secondly, Lucius is less about Obeying the opposition, and more about Obeying your own models e.g. giving extra actions to Agent 46. So when you relent, you only need a 9 to do it - not to mention using Draw Out Secrets to scheme.

Try playing those Lawyer, you'll quickly see, that they bring a lot of utility to a crew, but do so very differently from other 6 stone minions. Take their Sharp Wit - few minions have a Stat6 attack - it might not do damage, but hitting a 9-10 stone beater with Slow is more debilitating, than hitting it with 2 damage (- defensive tech). And it has some nice triggers. A push can have it end up in severe terrain (and get the lawyer out of the engagement. While 3 damage is a lot from a minion - and so is a discard.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Remember that the Lawyer is able to recycle cards for suits – nothing is more annoying, than to see an opponent activate a lawyer and reclaim a red joker.

Secondly, Lucius is less about Obeying the opposition, and more about Obeying your own models e.g. giving extra actions to Agent 46. So when you relent, you only need a 9 to do it.

Makes sense! Doing a 'on your heels' with Agent 46 outside its activation seems particularly potent.

[Regelridderen]

18 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Makes sense! Doing a 'on your heels' with Agent 46 outside its activation seems particularly potent.

Not to mention, that when you give the lawyer built in masks, you're handing out 2 x Shielded +2 in a bonus action. That's A LOT of defence.

Not to mention chain activations. Lucius commands a Lawyer, who in turn commands a False Witness or an Investigator. Giving you two card draws - and possibly dropping a scheme marker. Or simply 'rules lawyering' to circumvent limitations e.g. Lucius commands a Nephilim, then commands a Lawyer to Obey the Nephilim.

-

Lucius crew, is focused on card control. You've got abilities to drain your opponents hand, while you replenish/optimise your own. This allows you to take out key pieces via the Execute trigger, rather than brute force, while scheming to accomplish your objectives.

It's a tough crew to master, but unlike others who rely on getting the right pieces in the right position, at the right time. Elite/Mimics can accomplish multiple things in one turn. As an opponent you never get that sense of relief, when you see, that a big beater has had its turn, and you minimised its damage, because it's bound to try again.

[Ogid]

Glad to help @extremor. Check also the following 2 threads about Lucius, there are some good ideas there:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147902-lucius-what’s-his-trick/ (GUI side)

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147911-whats-up-with-lucius/ (NVB side)

 

Some quick tips (Disclaimer: I don't own Lucius yet so it's mostly theorycraft, but I see a ton of potential in his crew and I'm looking forward to play him.):

The mature is a very good beater; but I'd also consider Rougarous and Geryon as alternatives. And I'd definitely change the pact for IR in your mele beater of choice. Lucius has great card draw and the black jocker thing may come in handy but BTJ jump plus range 2 is a very powerful combination and mobile warrior plus Blade Rush is both a ton of damage and mobility in a crew with so many obeys.

Consider the summoners of the faction (Dreamer, Vasilisa/WW), these summon minions and Lucius excel at comanding them.

Mimics + some long range abilities (Candy/Angel Eyes) can give a gunlinish crew, something uncommon in NVB.

Candy is an very good model that can benefice a lot from Lawyer obeys to reposition her aura without activating her or from the Changelings to get some heals/fast.

[extremor]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Glad to help @extremor. Check also the following 2 threads about Lucius, there are some good ideas there:

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147902-lucius-what’s-his-trick/ (GUI side)

https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147911-whats-up-with-lucius/ (NVB side)

 

Some quick tips (Disclaimer: I don't own Lucius yet so it's mostly theorycraft, but I see a ton of potential in his crew and I'm looking forward to play him.):

The mature is a very good beater; but I'd also consider Rougarous and Geryon as alternatives. And I'd definitely change the pact for IR in your mele beater of choice. Lucius has great card draw and the black jocker thing may come in handy but BTJ jump plus range 2 is a very powerful combination and mobile warrior plus Blade Rush is both a ton of damage and mobility in a crew with so many obeys.

Consider the summoners of the faction (Dreamer, Vasilisa/WW), these summon minions and Lucius excel at comanding them.

Mimics + some long range abilities (Candy/Angel Eyes) can give a gunlinish crew, something uncommon in NVB.

Candy is an very good model that can benefice a lot from Lawyer obeys to reposition her aura without activating her or from the Changelings to get some heals/fast.

Thank you for the links. I already read those, too and they helped a lot as well.

Rougarous and Geryon may be alternatives as a beater - yes - but I don't simply use the Mature as a beater. He's a Taxi as well (fly with me) and gets my models into position (e.g. false witness to use their auras/Adversary) and the Mature can move enemy models away with terrorize... thats also why I perfere him to e.g. HInamatsu etc.

Yes Candy is very interesting as well. I still want to try my "murderous little children are a snipering death List": Lucius, Scribe, Agent, Candy, 2x false witness (to hand out adversary) and 3 changelings (to give +3 AP to Lucius)... hell a lot of Hidden Sniper and self loathing (wich can be copied by Agent 46)... 

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, extremor said:

Rougarous and Geryon may be alternatives as a beater - yes - but I don't simply use the Mature as a beater. He's a Taxi as well (fly with me) and gets my models into position (e.g. false witness to use their auras/Adversary) and the Mature can move enemy models away with terrorize... thats also why I perfere him to e.g. HInamatsu etc.

Yeah, Matures are great models, nothing wrong with going with the premium option

Rougarous can also help with the mobility of your non-minions, but it's not as good as fly with me. Rougarou can also move enemies away, the stat is worse but it gives slow to minions and the trigger is useful. They are a bit squishy but IR, shielded and the extra AP to kill things and trigger "Eat your fill" should keep them in a good shape imo.

Geryon can help the mobility in a different way: Copying Shoulder rush with Doppleganger/Agent 47 low tomes can be traded for movement, focused and a bit of damage if going into enemies. It could be a fun thing to suicide bomb a Changeling in a pinch (Shoulder Rush into Whispered truths). With H2K, Extended Reach, range 2, Old Ways (double severe card cheated as defense) and Frozen Vigor they are very tanky with IR; but they require extra hires to create ice pilars so they can trigger Frozen Vigor and use their bonus action to heal.

Henchmans/Enforcer beaters are also an option, but it'll tax you more. Lucius can only obey his keyword or minions, so you'll have to use lawyers to chain obey which are more expensive, have an higher TN and need to activate earlier to get the suit for the turn.

1 hour ago, extremor said:

Yes Candy is very interesting as well. I still want to try my "murderous little children are a snipering death List": Lucius, Scribe, Agent, Candy, 2x false witness (to hand out adversary) and 3 changelings (to give +3 AP to Lucius)... hell a lot of Hidden Sniper and self loathing (wich can be copied by Agent 46)... 

Haha, interesting concept. I'm not a fan of Lucius sniper with only stat 5 and reliying in the trigger for extra damage but with Injured it may be easier after the first hit.

FW are amazing for scoring and have some neat tricks, however using them to give Adversary is risky because they are squishy. For only that wicked dolls could be a cheaper substitute, they also have an stat 5 wp attack with 8'' that gives adversary and have the creep along bonus action to retreat with stealth AND accomplice. You can walk, use threaten, creep along to safety and accomplice into Lucius to start snipping.

As I said, not a fan of the concept, but I'd try something like this: Lucius, Scribe, Agent (IR), Candy, Lawyer/BBS, 3x Changelings, 2x Wicked dolls, 6/5SS. And here you have 2 extra childrens*!

*Kind of

[extremor]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Haha, interesting concept. I'm not a fan of Lucius sniper with only stat 5 and reliying in the trigger for extra damage but with Injured it may be easier after the first hit.

FW are amazing for scoring and have some neat tricks, however using them to give Adversary is risky because they are squishy. For only that wicked dolls could be a cheaper substitute, they also have an stat 5 wp attack with 8'' that gives adversary and have the creep along bonus action to retreat with stealth AND accomplice. You can walk, use threaten, creep along to safety and accomplice into Lucius to start snipping.

As I said, not a fan of the concept, but I'd try something like this: Lucius, Scribe, Agent (IR), Candy, Lawyer/BBS, 3x Changelings, 2x Wicked dolls, 6/5SS. And here you have 2 extra childrens*!

*Kind of

Yes Stat5 Snipe feels like throwing cottonballs at the opponent and therefor I wanted the "Adversary-Elite", and yes wicked dolls seem to be an alternative to think about. This list is on my desk for quite some time and I haven't had the motivation to try... probably because I'm also not a big fan of hidden sniper and prefere odering my subordinates. In my LGS I got a reputation for that, cause I once ordered a Lawyer half way across the table to push a button (Turf War) Lucius was standing next to! Got quite a lough for feeling and playing the real Elite-Touch of honorable LUCIUS MATHESON!!!

 

Nevermind. Maybe I will give Rougarous and Geryon a try, if only they wouldn`t be so damn ugly ;-D

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, extremor said:

Yes Stat5 Snipe feels like throwing cottonballs at the opponent and therefor I wanted the "Adversary-Elite", and yes wicked dolls seem to be an alternative to think about. This list is on my desk for quite some time and I haven't had the motivation to try... probably because I'm also not a big fan of hidden sniper and prefere odering my subordinates. In my LGS I got a reputation for that, cause I once ordered a Lawyer half way across the table to push a button (Turf War) Lucius was standing next to! Got quite a lough for feeling and playing the real Elite-Touch of honorable LUCIUS MATHESON!!

Haha, I wouldn't go that far but yeah, bossing around is the best part of Lucius, no doubt.

For an sniper list you could probably find Angel Eyes better, she has a better stat, damage track and trigger. Add the Agent so he may copy the rifle and then funnel all your orders shooting with him, stat 6 plus IP and a clockwork rifle is something to fear. Add 1 or 2 BBS to add focused and get 2 Mature Nephillims (maybe also Vasilisa + 1/2 dolls to grow them faster and support or Candy/Doppleganger for extra firepower), that's probably a decent gunline with some decent close punch too.

1 hour ago, extremor said:

Nevermind. Maybe I will give Rougarous and Geryon a try, if only they wouldn`t be so damn ugly ;-D

If you were looking for pretty things, you picked the wrong faction 

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

If you were looking for pretty things, you picked the wrong faction 

Whuddayamean?

We’ve pretty trees, cuddly bears, elves, a dude in tailormade clothes and powdered wigs - and I’m just waiting for the Alt Juju made as an anthropomorphic gingerbread house. 

The rest of Malifaux is infested with goth/steam/punks, rat afficionados, bondage girls and redneck goblins. Neverborn is definitely the sane and pretty ones

[Gaston]

FWIW I prefer BBS over Mature. Cheaper, you get to pulse out focused and still get a Mature Turn 2.

[Maniacal_cackle]

22 minutes ago, Gaston said:

FWIW I prefer BBS over Mature. Cheaper, you get to pulse out focused and still get a Mature Turn 2.

Presumably that means turn 3 fly with me at the earliest?

How are you finding the tradeoff of early focus instead of movement?

Very interested in the different views on BBS in lots of crews.

[Deathinabox]

On 6/9/2019 at 12:00 PM, Gaston said:

you can also Command Lucius himself as he is Elite in order to make him walk (and trigger Escort) or take another shot with Hidden Sniper.

Fun trick you can do if you want cards from Following Orders, you can Command Lucius to Command someone else, and get a card or more from it

[Gaston]

53 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Presumably that means turn 3 fly with me at the earliest?

How are you finding the tradeoff of early focus instead of movement?

Very interested in the different views on BBS in lots of crews.

It does suck to give it up, but the "perfect" play is to charge the BBS up a bit turn 1, use two masks to make two corpses. Pop the Ritual, give out 6-8 Focus. Next turn, you already have the corpse, so you pop the Ritual first (usually you don't get the whole crew as you have spread out at this point), grow up, then have 2 AP to play with as a Mature. 

Movement wise, you also have Entourage, Issue Command from Lucius (including Under Pressure), Issue Command from Changelings, Obey from Lawyers, and Stand Back, It's Evidence from Investigators. The crew does have a lot of "micro-movement" in order to make up for missing out on Fly with Me for 2 turns.

So to me, you give up 1 Turn of a Mature in exchange for 8-12 Focus (position dependent obviously). Given that Concentrate is a 1 AP action, you have really netted a huge AP benefit. Also, I think there is a tendency to commit Mature's too early anyway, they are a bit squishy, so it helps to self-regulate, at least for me.