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Why the prohibitive hiring restrictions?


Ludvig

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I woke up late for the party and just noticed that the new edition have very tight hiring restrictions placed even on cheapish minions. Witching stalkers for example seem to be plentiful 3, canine remains are plentiful 3(!) and I'm sure the same is true for most minions. 

Were spam lists really such a problem or is it just to match the amount sold in the boxes? As a longtime Sonnia player I find myself with too many witchlings that I can never field legally.

With the new keyword hiring I had been hoping to run six witchlings for a while to just be able to make a 50ss list for Sonnia since I don't own many of the later releases from her theme. Now I'll have a bunch of unusable stalkers that no one will want to buy or trade for since anyone starting Sonnia will automatically get the max amount of stalkers in her box. It also feels stupid to start a list with stalkers in it and risk having the perfect situation to summon one but being screwed out because the ones you hired didn't die yet. I really like the new summon upgrades that keep you from just spamming summons but this feels like a double-hit on her since she is really restricted in her summoning already and I feel like her crew mechanics want you to send in the witching models to tie stuff up. 

McMourning is in a similar position of having a useless canine in his current box that puts you over the rare rating (admittedly it won't be a problem for long). Canines being the only rare 3 hounds is also weird from a consistency aspect since there seems to be a default format of ple tiful 4 for the other hound models. 

I realize this might be too late to change but would love to hear everyones thoughts on the matter. 

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I got off relatively light on the new rules, only a few excess models.  I think they just want to get ahead of degenerate spam lists.  9 Belles springs to mind. 

Regarding Canine Remains, the Resser Deck comes with 4 Canine Remains cards so I'm hoping they've come around on that model.  My 4 canines are the OG metal puppies.

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As someone who came in for M3 (never played 2E), I like the restrictions.

Rabble Risers and Crooligans are limited to 3 each. This makes me face some tough choices (for instance, if I take Forgotten Marshal, I have to be careful of how many minions I hire if I want to double summon one type).

For summoning in general, those limits are super important. Given McMourning's crew can summon canine remains, the limit is an important part of how they work (not to mention their duels would get crazy if the pack got big enough).

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

As someone who came in for M3 (never played 2E), I like the restrictions.

Rabble Risers and Crooligans are limited to 3 each. This makes me face some tough choices (for instance, if I take Forgotten Marshal, I have to be careful of how many minions I hire if I want to double summon one type).

For summoning in general, those limits are super important. Given McMourning's crew can summon canine remains, the limit is an important part of how they work (not to mention their duels would get crazy if the pack got big enough).

The canines could have a summon upgrade like most summons already do to limit them which solves that issue. All the other hounds can at least be taken four times so you can have two pairs working independently, I'm not saying they should be like plentiful 8, just four like all the others with identical buffs. 

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As the proud owner of seven Death Marshals (or more, if I count the puppets), a dozen or so mechanical arachnids, two boxes of mindless zombies, four of the big mechanical spiders, four of the Japanese spider-centaurs, and two Teddies (not counting puppets), I don’t believe the issue was “spam”, entirely.

The issue was more the fact that a player had to ask “How many boxes of this do need to buy?”  And the decision was made to make the answer “Buy one box.”

I’m happy with the change.

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

As the proud owner of seven Death Marshals (or more, if I count the puppets), a dozen or so mechanical arachnids, two boxes of mindless zombies, four of the big mechanical spiders, four of the Japanese spider-centaurs, and two Teddies (not counting puppets), I don’t believe the issue was “spam”, entirely.

The issue was more the fact that a player had to ask “How many boxes of this do need to buy?”  And the decision was made to make the answer “Buy one box.”

I’m happy with the change.

The other issue potentially at play is balance. If Wyrd accidentally break a model (rather than an interaction), it's less pressing an issue if they're restricted, because they're covered twice.

First, the OOK tax limits the ability faction wide. A model would have to be incredibly off the power scale for it to be taken significantly out of Keyword. So that'd limit the model to being taken by one specific Master, restricting it's abuse.

Second, having a relative hard cap on numbers means even the singular Master can't abuse it excessively. Imagine if Rotten Belles were a full SS cheaper than they should be (yes, imagine that, stretch your imagination, go on, do it), then at most, a Seamus crew is only 3/50 SS (6% overall) better off than it should be. Whereas if you could put 9 down, it's 18% better.

So, it makes sense to limit the potential damage that an error in costing works.

The two exceptions I think should exist, are summons if you fielded a full allotment (ie, Witchling Stalkers have their rarity increased to four, if three were purchased during crew design).

The other is four Freikorpsmann, because they only ever came in pairs, and it's dumb to knock them back to three, IMO. FOURKORPSMANN! I will never not thing Minion 3 was a mistake for these.

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Most mini games actually let you decide how many models/units you want to buy to some extent, I'm not sure we needed this amount of handholding. Next edition I guess you'll just get the witch hunter box with every witch hunter model in a bundle and a selection from five premade lists so no one risks making an independent choice or getting bogged down in boring list building. ;)  

I guess I can get the argument that people won't spam broken stuff, balancing is always tough. Only time will tell if that lessens the sting of having so many useless models and wasted hours of painting. 

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I am limited to TWELVE RATS!   I am about to flip this freaking table!!!!!

(ow ow... stop throwing rocks at me)

Honestly, with Nix's upgrade I used to run the 4 Guard Hounds, 4 Corrupted Hounds, & 3 Canine Remains.... I am going to miss that list in more ways than one.

The only other thing I spammed besides dogs and cats were Tengu for scheme marker dropping shenanigans, but that mechanic for autodropping markers isn't there anymore either, so not really missing out.

 

.... still though, only 12 rats?? 

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It's clear that the vast majority of the decisions relating to M3E have been aimed at attracting new players.

  • Keyword hiring makes working out what to buy for a crew easier
  • Repackaging profiles into Keyword-related boxes makes expanding easier
  • Faction books make picking up a single faction and starting out easier

 

And keeping the model limits to only what comes in a single box (that people won't be buying multiples of because of the repackaging) stops new players feeling like their money is being wasted.  It's annoying for existing players, but getting new people involved will help the game grow.  Focusing on existing players won't do that (and at least they're doing the Special Orders for new models in boxes with old ones).

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I've got 6 Guild Guard. Now Guild Patrol with a limit of 4. 3 Wardens with a Limit of 2. Though honestly if I get a Through the Breach game going I won't have to worry.

The thing that I'm upset about is McCabe and his Nightmare box. Because I love those models, but now the Ramones/Mounted Guard can't be taken in his crew. I hope that if they redo the cards the Ramones get switched to proxies of a different 10t model, but honestly I like them as Mounted Guard a lot more.

 

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14 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

I've got 6 Guild Guard. Now Guild Patrol with a limit of 4. 3 Wardens with a Limit of 2. Though honestly if I get a Through the Breach game going I won't have to worry.

The thing that I'm upset about is McCabe and his Nightmare box. Because I love those models, but now the Ramones/Mounted Guard can't be taken in his crew. I hope that if they redo the cards the Ramones get switched to proxies of a different 10t model, but honestly I like them as Mounted Guard a lot more.

 

I'd bet they will be proxies for some frontier models.

I have four teddies and four mature nephilim. 😅 

@theamazingmrg

I hope that strategy works! That would be worth the loss on my part because players have been dropping like flies around here. I think the models being a chore to assemble compared to every other game has also been a huge barrier of entry, let's hope the new kits are a lot better in that regard. 

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1 hour ago, Hagisman said:

I've got 6 Guild Guard. Now Guild Patrol with a limit of 4. 3 Wardens with a Limit of 2. Though honestly if I get a Through the Breach game going I won't have to worry.

The thing that I'm upset about is McCabe and his Nightmare box. Because I love those models, but now the Ramones/Mounted Guard can't be taken in his crew. I hope that if they redo the cards the Ramones get switched to proxies of a different 10t model, but honestly I like them as Mounted Guard a lot more.

 

I'm sure there will be some trading going on as people have lost access to other models.  I've got so much Resser & Neverborn that I can no longer play.

Perhaps Lucas will get cool new (mechanized) toys to play with when he officially joins the Explorer's Society.

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1 hour ago, Hagisman said:

The thing that I'm upset about is McCabe and his Nightmare box. Because I love those models, but now the Ramones/Mounted Guard can't be taken in his crew. I hope that if they redo the cards the Ramones get switched to proxies of a different 10t model, but honestly I like them as Mounted Guard a lot more.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Perhaps Lucas will get cool new (mechanized) toys to play with when he officially joins the Explorer's Society.

Wyrd have said that the Ramones will get rules of their own at some point. My money is on the whole box getting an Explorers League makeover and rules. It just might not be for a while.

 

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21 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

 

Wyrd have said that the Ramones will get rules of their own at some point. My money is on the whole box getting an Explorers League makeover and rules. It just might not be for a while.

 

If Wyrd makes the Ramones and Rollins their own Explorer League crew I'd be over the moon.

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27 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

Most of my duplicate models come from losing bits in the carpet. I tried using bits from other models/lines to compensate, but the dimensions are off. 

Sounds like a golden opportunity to learn to model with greenstuff. ;)

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 6/14/2019 at 6:46 PM, Hagisman said:

Most of my duplicate models come from losing bits in the carpet. I tried using bits from other models/lines to compensate, but the dimensions are off.

A vacuum cleaner with a panty hose is great for finding little plastic pieces from a furry carpet, btw.

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I’ve yet to play a 3e game, still waiting on my faction packs, but I so far like the hiring rules. I like how they limit your hiring to a keyword unless you pay a soul stone penalty. This will help prevent these cheesy tournament crews that many were using. This will pretty much limit crews to their theme. I think it will be good for the game. I also like the limit on models. No more spam is awesome. Now if only GW would follow this model!

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@Hot4Perdita

It remains to be seen if it will lead to more varied crews or everyone playing the same master with similar crews. Certain versatile models may also sail up as auto includes. 

It will be fun to face more themed crews once I get my head around all the new stuff. 

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

@Hot4Perdita

It remains to be seen if it will lead to more varied crews or everyone playing the same master with similar crews. Certain versatile models may also sail up as auto includes. 

It will be fun to face more themed crews once I get my head around all the new stuff. 

IMHO the variance will be bigger than M2E (especially for some factions) but apart from that there will still be autopicks, all-stars and different tier masters.

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