Wyrd proxy rules?

[Pergli]

Can anyone point me to the proxy rules on the site? 

[Nikodemus]

https://www.wyrd-games.net/resources

Scroll down to "Organised Play Formats". In it you find Gaining Grounds 2018, latest official tournament document for 2e (3e doesn't have one as of yet).

From said document:
 

Quote

 

Conversions & Proxies
Proxy models are not allowed in Gaining Grounds tournaments. A player must use the official Wyrd Miniatures model.

Conversions, however, are acceptable if the Organizer deems them to be accurate representations of the models portrayed. They are an excellent way to show off your modeling skills. If using a model that was converted, no more than 33% of the finished model may be built using non-Wyrd models, while the rest must be Wyrd manufactured pieces, as determined by the Organizer.

The only exception to this rule is if a model has an officially released stat card available, but no model is yet released, the player may field a conversion, but it must be easily identifiable, as per the Organizer’s discretion.

___

Official "Proxies"
The rule disallowing proxies is in place because it is unfair to expect an opponent to memorize which models are something else entirely. Limited edition models, such as the "Miss" series, Nightmare models, or the Dead Justice crew are legal models that may be played as the models they were noted as in their original release.

However, some specific "proxies" are allowed, as the models no longer have rules, and instead count as a different model. These models must be mounted on the current legal base size.

Old Model => Treated As
Minion Hamelin => Master Hamelin
Minion Misaki => Master Misaki
Candy the Petulant => Youth Candy
Nightmare Hanged => Montresor
The Carver => Killjoy

Any Avatar may be used as a proxy for one Emissary of Fate. The Avatar must be the same Faction as the Emissary of Fate to be a legal proxy, regardless of which model is leading the Crew. For example, Kirai may proxy Avatar Seamus as the Carrion Emissary, but a Guild Crew could not use Avatar Seamus as a proxy. Sim 29 counts as an Avatar for proxy purposes.

 

Your local TO may or may not be as strict as the GG document.

[Ludvig]

14 minutes ago, Pergli said:

Can anyone point me to the proxy rules on the site? 

Always check with the specific TO. I think pretty much every tournament I've been to has allowed a few proxies outside of those listed in GG. 

[Clement]

It's worth noting that when 3e comes out, that list of legal proxies WILL change.   Carver is becoming his own model for example, so he shouldn't count as a Killjoy anymore.

[Pergli]

Yeah, my current concern is GenCon. I want to bring Albus Von Schtook but his box isn't out until afterwards so I need to proxy: Albus, Research assistant and 3x undergraduates. There isn't anything out for M3e on proxies and I doubt there will be until GG is released. Not sure how to contact the current TO to ask what is acceptable to bring. 

My idea:

Amelia - Albus
Malifaux child - assistant
shieldbearers - undergrads (only because I have 3 of them and won't run them with albus)

[Nikodemus]

@Pergli

That's Wyrd's own thread on GenCon events. That's where I'd ask.

[Gnomezilla]

28 minutes ago, Pergli said:

Yeah, my current concern is GenCon. I want to bring Albus Von Schtook but his box isn't out until afterwards so I need to proxy: Albus, Research assistant and 3x undergraduates. There isn't anything out for M3e on proxies and I doubt there will be until GG is released. Not sure how to contact the current TO to ask what is acceptable to bring. 

My idea:

Amelia - Albus
Malifaux child - assistant
shieldbearers - undergrads (only because I have 3 of them and won't run them with albus)

Oof. Even in our extremely lax meta proxy environment that would be a little troublesome. We try to use models that would be impossible to field under the declared master (so proxying in-faction is discouraged) unless their pose is strikingly alike to what they are proxying and so it would be confusing even with the real model (and none of these fit that criterion either). Child, no longer a cross-faction hire, as totem-of-the-hour is not confusing but seeing ‘Nicodem’ and ‘shieldbearers’ in a Resser list is a plausible outcome, and therefore they are not great as proxies.

[Pergli]

14 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Oof. Even in our extremely lax meta proxy environment that would be a little troublesome. We try to use models that would be impossible to field under the declared master (so proxying in-faction is discouraged) unless their pose is strikingly alike to what they are proxying and so it would be confusing even with the real model (and none of these fit that criterion either). Child, no longer a cross-faction hire, as totem-of-the-hour is not confusing but seeing ‘Nicodem’ and ‘shieldbearers’ in a Resser list is a plausible outcome, and therefore they are not great as proxies.

Exactly.. I need to know what's acceptable to bring. Also I'm assuming since it's wyrds tournament dmh will not be legal to Nico should be okay. 

 

Posted already in the gencon events and no response. Was trying to find another route

[Hobby Wyrd]

Like Nikodemus posted Proxy models are not allowed in Gaining Grounds tournaments. A player must use the official Wyrd Miniatures model. The only exception to this rule is if a model has an officially released stat card available (as many do for 3rd edition), but no model is yet released, the player may field a conversion, but it must be easily identifiable, as per the Organizer’s discretion. So you can proxy Albus Von Schtook as he has a current stat card.  The key is to make it look as close to the figure you are proxying. So, for example, Amelia Bathory is not easily identifiable as Von Schtook, but if you made some modifications and made her look more Von Schtook like you could proxy her. That would take one hell of a plastic surgeon:)  

[Pergli]

Gah, the proxy rules are frustrating. For one month, I am going to have to get models, tear them up and modify them to match my idea of those models and then in a month.. buy the actual models because my proxies are no longer legal.

Might be easier to just not use him.. which is definitely a problem.

[Gnomezilla]

12 minutes ago, Pergli said:

Gah, the proxy rules are frustrating. For one month, I am going to have to get models, tear them up and modify them to match my idea of those models and then in a month.. buy the actual models because my proxies are no longer legal.

Might be easier to just not use him.. which is definitely a problem.

But if they’re chopped and changed, then they’re conversions and stay legal as long as they’re X% Wyrd model (and/or greenstuff, nobody begrudges wires and putty).

[nomadicXnightmare]

11 minutes ago, Pergli said:

Gah, the proxy rules are frustrating. For one month, I am going to have to get models, tear them up and modify them to match my idea of those models and then in a month.. buy the actual models because my proxies are no longer legal.

Might be easier to just not use him.. which is definitely a problem.

I would argue that you shouldn't look at it from quite so negative a standpoint. Think about it this way - if you go through the conversion process you're going to end up with a crew that is unique and distinctly yours. At the same time, you'll have the opportunity to play a Master that technically hasn't been released yet at GenCon. I fail to see a downside here. Granted, converting an entire crew is a significant amount of work, but you could end up with a crew that's truly special that you can be proud to put to table, rather than as a 'simple proxy'. The crew will still be 100% legal to field moving forward, so you'll even have the opportunity to chose whether to purchase the new models or stick with what you have, only supplementing as you need/want. I'd say go for it!

[Pergli]

19 hours ago, nomadicXnightmare said:

I would argue that you shouldn't look at it from quite so negative a standpoint. Think about it this way - if you go through the conversion process you're going to end up with a crew that is unique and distinctly yours. At the same time, you'll have the opportunity to play a Master that technically hasn't been released yet at GenCon. I fail to see a downside here. Granted, converting an entire crew is a significant amount of work, but you could end up with a crew that's truly special that you can be proud to put to table, rather than as a 'simple proxy'. The crew will still be 100% legal to field moving forward, so you'll even have the opportunity to chose whether to purchase the new models or stick with what you have, only supplementing as you need/want. I'd say go for it!

Fair enough! i do like the new models coming out though.

I think I found some TOS models which would work and need no conversion. 100% wyrd, easily identifiable and unique which meets all the criteria and gets the perks of not being an actual malifaux model. So all is good now and you're right, I can always use them and they will be completely unique. 

[Jesy Blue]

What about proxying with other Wyrd models?

For example, I picked up the Through The Breach female kit and a couple Miss Anne Thrope Wastrals.  I turned one into a Wastral, one into a Beckoner (and a couple for miniatures for my RPG, but we're not talking about them). 

The Wastral is not illigal because its 100% Wyrd models, and probably 50% real Wastral. 

But the Beckoner is still 100% Wryd model, not an existing model with a stat card to get confused with, but also 100% not a Beckoner model.

What's the legality on that?  (I just needed 1 Beckoner, hence why I didn't buy the box, and I already had the female kit)

[solkan]

28 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

What about proxying with other Wyrd models?

For example, I picked up the Through The Breach female kit and a couple Miss Anne Thrope Wastrals.  I turned one into a Wastral, one into a Beckoner (and a couple for miniatures for my RPG, but we're not talking about them). 

If you take parts from multiple models and build something, that's called by some people "kit bashing".  It's an activity that is classified as "conversions".  Because of all of the different results that can be achieved (Do you want to take it as a challenge to start with the parts for Sonia and the the female model kit and produce something that can pass as a Wastrel?), it falls under the conversion guidelines:

Quote

Conversions, however, are acceptable if the Organizer deems them to be accurate representations of the models portrayed. They are an excellent way to show off your modeling skills. If using a model that was converted, no more than 33% of the finished model may be built using non-Wyrd models, while the rest must be Wyrd manufactured pieces, as determined by the Organizer.

A useful comparison is Privateer Press's tournament conversion guidelines which once upon a time said flat out that it's not possible to start with Model A and convert it to Model B, especially if you're trying to convert between two variants of the same base model.  The conversion guidelines in Gaining Grounds don't say that.

If someone take a collection of parts out of a box labeled Sonia Creed, and assemble those parts it produces a model for Sonia Creed.  Using that Sonia Creed model for anything else is proxying.  If someone take those parts, add some other parts or modifies those parts, they produce a result which might be Sonia Creed or it might be something else.

To be frank, @Hench Wrangler's comment about requiring "one hell of a plastic surgeon" to turn Amelia Bathory into Von Schtook is the sort of thing that some people would take as a fun challenge.

28 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

The Wastral is not illigal because its 100% Wyrd models, and probably 50% real Wastral. 

But the Beckoner is still 100% Wryd model, not an existing model with a stat card to get confused with, but also 100% not a Beckoner model.

What's the legality on that?  (I just needed 1 Beckoner, hence why I didn't buy the box, and I already had the female kit)

The legality depends entirely on the result.  If you're dealing with hypotheticals, there are two obvious hypothetical results:

1.  Bad Ending.  You produce a model that doesn't pass for the model that you want to use it for.

2.  Good Ending.  You produce a model that does pass for the model that you want to use it for.

Reasonably speaking, lots of Wyrd models have alternate versions, so it comes down to identifying design features that are important for the model to look like thing it's supposed to look like.  What you have to do is build the model and then ask because until it's been built, you really can't say how a model is going to turn out.

For instance, Ten Thunders Jorogumo are based on these spider demon ladies.  The production models are things that look like spider-centaurs carrying long polearms.  There's lots of stuff you could take parts from and produce something that would be recognizable as either a variation of the spider-centaur model or the "spider demon lady" concept.

[Pergli]

Yeah, my current plan is to use 4 of the models in the broken kit which should be able to proxy pretty well.

One is in a labcoat like a professor = albus

3 rough looking guys with spikey clubs - undergraduates. Just need to paint them as undead and it should be fine. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

What about sculpts?

Can people field models they sculpted from scratch/didn't use any non-wyrd model parts? Or does green stuff and the like count as non-wyrd models?

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

What about sculpts?

Can people field models they sculpted from scratch/didn't use any non-wyrd model parts? Or does green stuff and the like count as non-wyrd models?

Green stuff, raw polystyrene, and other modeling components are not “non-Wyrd models”.  

Note that the guidelines don’t say that there’s a limit to the amount of non-Wyrd components.  It says there’s a limit to the amount sourced from non-Wyrd models.  Using the body parts of, for instance, Wild West Exodus models, is what’s covered in that limitation.