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SAYNE

If I could make the errata... (GH and Cult focused)

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I guess this should be in general in a way, but i'd like to compile a list of "seems unintended" or bad interactions that takes the player's out if the game. Keep in mind I rarely play Earthside factions (only friends proxying) so I can't comment much on their states. There will always be strong combos so I'm going to try to avoid listing those, just some of the more egregious ones.

1. Rhinos are feel bad no matter how you approach them.

2. Nothing in the game should be able to reduce damage directly to 0. Assets can only reduce a numerical value of damage, and so should other models mechanics. Eels do this a lot, as do Rhinos.

3. Relics of Ancient Malifaux should be a Versatile, Once per Activation action. This stops Frenzy abuse and also makes it more attractive to anyone else. 

4. Portal generation should not limit where Supply Cache markers can go. If placed correctly your opponent can't score. Either Supply Cache needs to be changed or Portals need to not effect objectives. 

5. Pitched Assault directly counters GH. Yes I've played and won games, it was always an uphill battle. No other allegiance suffers quite as hard from a strategy. 

6. GH is also the only faction that has units that don't count for it's own special rules. I understand recursion is insanely powerful, but it's a feel bad that sometimes a big chunk of your force can't come back.  

7. Every faction should have a non-asset way to generate tokens. At the very least Pinned. This might not be necessary if Relics is nerfed.

8. Adjuncts need to be retweaked. Morphlings literally only exist to fill gaps and if you don't take Engineers/Raving Madmen you're doing it wrong.

9. Cult mitigates it's own "weaknesses" a tad to easily (see above point). Shaken tokens should probably be more applicable to them. 

10. I don't think Tide Pools feel very fun to play against, especially when used en masse. This feeds into the next point-

11. Unresisted damage that can be cheated is bad. Awful. As much as I love to use it, it is one of the worst feelings in the game. All agency is removed from the player. Stormsiren has to win her Lure duel, but with an 8 value she rarely loses. If things like hazardous terrain force you to take damage, the opposing player should not be able to cheat or reflip it. 

12. Summoning feels lackluster for squads, coming into the board 1-2 fireteams down doesn't make much sense especially if they don't spawn in with reinforcement tokens. My proposition is that models summon at full strength with 2 pinned markers on them and count as activated for the turn they are summoned. GH, since it is summoned before the turn doesn't worry about being activated but the 2 pins still apply. This prevents summons from holding an area the moment they are brought in, while also having a fighting chance. It doesn't allow someone to summon, then immediately rush down an objective the same activation or turn. It also reduces the need to either sit in place with a Focused Effort or have some kind of healer to be useful whatsoever. 

 

Feel free to make your own lists for Earthside allegiances.

  • Respectfully Disagree 1

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6 hours ago, SAYNE said:

2. Nothing in the game should be able to reduce damage directly to 0. Assets can only reduce a numerical value of damage, and so should other models mechanics. Eels do this a lot, as do Rhinos.

3. Relics of Ancient Malifaux should be a Versatile, Once per Activation action. This stops Frenzy abuse and also makes it more attractive to anyone else. 

4. Portal generation should not limit where Supply Cache markers can go. If placed correctly your opponent can't score. Either Supply Cache needs to be changed or Portals need to not effect objectives. 

12. My proposition is that models summon at full strength with 2 pinned markers on them and count as activated for the turn they are summoned. GH, since it is summoned before the turn doesn't worry about being activated but the 2 pins still apply. This prevents summons from holding an area the moment they are brought in, while also having a fighting chance. It doesn't allow someone to summon, then immediately rush down an objective the same activation or turn. It also reduces the need to either sit in place with a Focused Effort or have some kind of healer to be useful whatsoever. 

2) Rhinos reduce damage by 1, not to 0.  Currently only Eels can do that, unless you're suggesting Rhinos only be allowed to reduce by 1 once per damage source?

3) That would have a significant impact on Horo as well, if it was made either Versatile or Once Per Activation it would essentially neuter the support Horo playstyle.

4) Portal Markers do not have any impact on where Supply Cache's Objective Markers can go, might want to reread that.

12) That's not how turns work, start of the turn is still part of that turn.  Only way around that is if we added a blurb to Endless Numbers that said these Squads can activate normally this turn, which is workable, but is also a huge nerf to other summons.

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Yes I'm saying the eels should be nerfed. This wasn't a Nerf only rhinos thread. Horo is already used far more often than some of the other commanders. I don't think it would neuter him, but if he was slightly weaker it might be okay. I have no problems with my faction getting slightly weaker if it means less feel bad moments for me and my opponent. 

I may have to reread supply cache, but I thought it said it had to be placed at least 12/8" away from other Markers. It does not specify which kind. 

I would like to Nerf summoning in a way, as it stops some currently abusive strategies, such as Behind Enemy Lines to immediately flip a marker without counterplay unless you babysit it. It gives the opponent a chance to react to it. Giving the summoned unit full squads at least allows it to have a chance at survival.

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Summoned units can't play an objective on the turn they are summoned. However they will still contest and cause engagement preventing others from playing the objective too. I actually find summons ok balance wise. Sure they start weak, but it's another unit. More activations is still good, even if poor ones. Yeah a tweak might be needed, but I've not found them extreme unless synced with some other nasty shenanigans.

1. Yup Rhinos need looking at, no fire nova or no toughness imo.

2. Eels reinforcement use reduces damage by 1, and/or no toughness pick

3. relics shouldn't be versatile, that would make it considerably more potent than the Megaphone. Morale action and one per activation would actually make it worse than the megaphone though. In fact as is, the relics are quite a bit worse than the megaphone, apart from the frenzy, where it excels with shark tooth necklaces. As such I think the weakening could be done there, the necklaces only provide the +ve flip on melee actions or such.

5. I'm hoping GH will get an elite core of units, to counter this. We have the regenerating horde style, need a more elite core to help mitigate this.

6. A big section? Alpha, frenzy, siren, horo, eels. The only limiting thing I've found is not having the tokens that turn to call them back. But I consider that when buying the strategem cards, so a non-issue for me.

7. Agreed, factions should have speciality, but be able to have a little of each playstyle. This again remedied by more units, which won't be for a while :(

8. Considering Medal of Honor costs 2scrip and that gives +1tactics and the inspired trigger. I would still be happy to take engineers at 2scrip, at 1scrip it's a steal. Madmen I'm not so sure, it's certainly possible to play a strong game without them, so just increasing the cost wouldn't work so well here. Perhaps a -1 to all AV to fireteam it's in, slows the unit down and makes the madman a small liability while maintaining game flow.

 

Siren is really powerful, as are the Frenzy, however I think this is because the rest of their forces are more expendable, which is why I feel the frenzy do still need to be able to heal a lot in a support role. Otherwise GH just can't replenish losses fast enough. Siren doesn't care, she's a one woman army. That said 1 easy to win Wp duel causing 2+ hits on a unit is crazy (1 entering the pool, then 1 when they activate) makes me feel they should only take the 1 hit on their own turn. That would require a core rule change however.

Something I noticed is that a number of really potent units seem to have unopposed duels, Rhino fire nova, electrocutioners gigawatts, sirens pools. Honestly not too sure if this can really be addressed easily as fairly core rules. But it actually has made me consider how much of the effect is psychological, in that you are unable to defend against it. The way many games let you roll defense dice, even though it wouldn't make difference it it were the attacker. Yeah I know the examples are strong, but as you say the loss of agency makes it feel that much worse.

Perhaps pulses affecting friendly forces as well? That would make them far more cautious in their use, much like area damage. Has it's pros and cons

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I'm actually ignorant to the Megaphone upgrade, so... I could imagine adding versatile to both Megaphone and Relics would be fine and up the cost by 1. I just have a thematic issue with a horde of Hunter killer sharks being the best healers in the game...

By a large section of my force I mean points wise, not raw model count. Once again, I'm not sure how I'd change it, since a respawning Titan or eel would be intense... 

Yeah, I'd rather Madmen just be redesigned to not make the entire unit immune to shaken tokens. Maybe not being able to use them against their attacks, but their defense could be. It just again makes Cult tankier than it "should" be according to the allegiance description.

As much as I want more elite GH units, I really don't want to break away from the whole cheap horde idea. I think Pitched Assault just doesn't work with their glory mechanic, and there aren't enough ways to approach objectives sideways that their hordiness can benefit from. My dream would be to change Pitched to Scrip killed rather than Model/Unit/Fireteam. Commanders would be worth some arbitrary number.

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On 6/8/2019 at 6:43 AM, SAYNE said:

8. Adjuncts need to be retweaked. Morphlings literally only exist to fill gaps and if you don't take Engineers/Raving Madmen you're doing it wrong.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I have to pick up on this. I see a lot of people saying the Morphling is weak but when you stick it on a unit of Skulkers, you have a unit that can teleport anywhere on the board and take an objective.

Sit in the back until the end of the turn - activate, eat one fireteam to go to glory, fade and kill another fireteam and get a reinforcement token, then fade again using the morphling action anywhere on the table. Then use the Skulkers action to interact.

Unless you've got the board presence to crowd it out you're going to lose control of that objective/have it pillaged.

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17 hours ago, Sharpedge said:

Sit in the back until the end of the turn - activate, eat one fireteam to go to glory, fade and kill another fireteam and get a reinforcement token, then fade again using the morphling action anywhere on the table. Then use the Skulkers action to interact.

Wow, it sounds powerful, but otherwise i can't think of situation when morphling has any impact. Morphling can be place only into three units. If it could copy the actions of the enemy squads, it would look much more terrible and useful. Or attach one upgrade with ignoring restrictions.

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Well it can copy envoys, having it use ECB actions is always good fun, and yeah there are some interesting shenanigans which can be played using it with the skulkers. Things like Regenerating Segments or Hatch are others which niche uses, something which the other adjuncts aren't really able to match. 1scrip for an extra action on a unit is always nice, sure it's no engineer, but I do consider those way too effective.

Morphling will gain versatility in the future as well, being able to draw action from more units. The other thing is that GH are more of a reinforcement focus, this means they are in a much better position to expend their adjunct for damage reduction keeping the fireteam in play contesting objectives or holding engagements.

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The morphling is way to limited. It cannot even copy the attack of the eel nor can it summon. It does not buff its unit and in most cases simply gives you just an additional melee attack. Furthermore it can only be attached to 3 units in GH. In my experience it is not on par with any other adjunct. You could try to copy the egg clutch "go to glory" action though. 

 

Weakening the eel is possible, but then there need to be buffs in the units. Just take a look how casually gb units are removed by Abbysinia. Mech Infantry will kill a unit per turn easily.  Concentrating fire/tracer rounds feel far from fair. First experimental weapons, then the engineer, then 2 fireteams and last the mech will shoot the brown stuff out of you. The mech will shoot with an AV of 11!!!! Once he has won he cansually lower the value to generate a 2nd attack.

Endless numbers is nice, but gives you back a non-glory crippled unit, that will again be easily removed. And it limits your precious tactics tokens; less interacts.

Electrocutioners are borderline broken with their gigawatt attack which is guranteed to work with the "you flip a 15 stratagem". 

Egg clutches are basically glory Targets for aby. They do not care for los. So no hiding the eggs. Plus the non existing defence and armor  

 

By now it is probably clear that abysinnia has gone german on my brazillian gibbering hordes. Therefore I admit that I m at least a little biased when it comes to them. The eels were pretty much the only things which kind of stood a chance against them.

I honestly do not see the need for the nerf bat on GH.

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I don't see it as a Nerf bat though to make adjustments to the eel. It's a mechanic that is inconsistent with the rest of similar mechanics in the game for no reason. If another unit had the same ability I'd suggest toning it down on that one too unless it had nothing else going for it, which the eel clearly does. 

If there are too many "feel bad moments" in a game it makes the game unhealthy and ultimately worse. I'm not saying anything about Abyssinia because I don't KNOW Abyssinia well enough to comment. Not that I feel they are immune to nerfing.

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Bing can also ignore all damage for discarding. So it is not so inconsistend. 

In general however I totally agree that there is an obvious need for rebalancing. Tone diwn extremes and improve some weak stuff. 

Tweaks I see are glory mechanics. KE glory mechanic is really weak. Killing sth and when their activation is finished they flip. Compared to Abysinia who can turn to glory during their activation KE feels left short.

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